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[Accept Your Privilege] [Understanding Your Privilege] [Adopt a Language of Respect and Equality] [How to Approach Minority Spaces] [Treat Us Like Humans, Not ‘The Other’] [If You’re Not the Problem, Then You’re Not the Problem]
- Accept Your Privilege
- Understanding Your Privilege
[Learn to Listen] [You Aren’t Bad] [Criticism Isn’t Hatred] [Sympathy, Not Empathy] [Mistakes are Okay]This step is one of the most important ones I’m going to talk about. Understanding privilege is an ongoing process that will help you to understand how to participate in minority1 discussion/movements without taking over their space or feeling left out.
- Learn to Listen Rather Than Speak
This one is a lot harder than it sounds, and I say this as someone who loves speaking and voicing her opinion on things. One of the greatest things we, as privileged people, can bring to a minority discussion is our closed mouths and open ears/minds. When you enter a minority space, you need to realize that this is their soapbox, not yours. Your privilege gives you many other soapboxes that you can take advantage of, so when participating in a minority discussion your primary goal is to pay attention to what they say about their issues, lives, and oppressions.
- You Aren’t Bad for Having Privilege
You don’t have any control over the privilege you were given, and we get that. It’s important for you to get that, and get that we aren’t saying that, and then realize what that means when combined with your privilege to pretend that you aren’t privileged. Confused? Simply put: you aren’t bad for having privilege, but not being able to give up your privilege is not a ‘get out of jail free’ card for bad behaviour. So, what, then, to do about it? Well, finding a balance between accepting your privilege and fighting against it is not easy. I still struggle with it on a daily basis. But, one way to start is to listen to and take feedback from minority groups. They are a good judge of how your actions come across to them. Not everyone’s opinions will be the same, but eventually you’ll come out with some semblance of balance that works for you and those around you.
- Criticism is Not Hatred
Any time a minority busts out with an angry critique (or even a nice one), someone will eventually come up with the, “I’m sorry you hate men/whites/heterosexuals/etc.” line. With rare exception, minority individuals do not hate privileged individuals, but we do hate how many privileged individuals act! Learn to take criticism. Learn to not deflect it with excuses about how the minority person is just angry, hateful, etc. Even if the person in question is angry, hateful, etc. Even if you, personally, don’t act that way.
- You Can Only Sympathize, Not Empathize
This is probably the hardest one for me, personally, to wrap my mind around because I’m all about drawing links between oppressions. But, no matter how strong the link is, the facts remain that no two oppressions are the same. And it’s you, as the privileged party, who needs to be extra careful about when and how you draw links. While the intent may be to show solidarity, the result is all too often that you come off as defensive, trying to one-up the minority groups and appropriate their oppression. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t ever try to make connections, but rather that you should think about how the connections you’re drawing will come off to others.
- It’s Okay to Make Mistakes
The road to understanding your privilege is one full of trial and error. What works in one situation may not work in another, and we may be clueless as to why. What is acceptable in society, may not actually be appropriate. Part of understanding our privilege is understanding how to apply it, and that will come with us screwing up now and again. We may be called on it, we may not be, but the important part is to learn from it. If you’re confronted about your behaviour, use what your confronter says to change your mind, don’t try to change theirs.
- Learn to Listen Rather Than Speak
- Adopt a Language of Respect and Equality
[“PC†Terms] [Debunking “Reverse -isms”] [Check Your Privilege] [Intent Isn’t an Excuse] [Learn the Lingo] [Use the Lingo Well] [Call Out Others]Chances are you’ll begin to do this on your journey to understanding your privilege, but it bears repeating because it’s an important aspect. So what, exactly, is a language of respect and equality?
- Revisiting “Politically Correct”
Your first instinct might be to dismiss words like “womyn” and being asked not to use “gay” as an insult as “that PC crap”. If so, sit back and think about that. Your privilege gives you the power to dismiss the decisions of minority groups, and further deride them by turning “politically correct” into a slur. Part of engaging in a language of respect and equality is in recognizing the validity of a person’s choice to use language, and “politically correct” terms, even if you may not understand or agree with them.
- Debunking the “Reverse -ism” Argument
The foundation of this argument — that we’re all just people and so -isms are -isms, no matter which group they’re targeted at — is one I sympathize with. Would that we lived in such a world! But the world is more complex than that. The same power dynamics that create privilege have created a hierarchy of prejudice so that discrimination against a privileged group is not the same as discrimination against a minority group. This is because discrimination against a minority group is backed up with institutionalized power, whereas discrimination against a privileged group is often a singular act and therefore easier to avoid. I don’t think anyone would dispute the fact that discrimination sucks, but glossing over the inequity of the two discriminations helps keep the inequity in play.
- Don’t Make It About You
First of all, there’s a difference between using your own experience as a foundation for understanding, and making something about you. The former requires you thinking abou a situation and trying to understand it the only way you can - through your own personal lens. The latter, however, is often a defensive reaction (especially around minority groups, because privileged groups have been trained to keep the focus on ourselves) that will shut down dialogue faster that you can say “moo”. Make sure that what you’re saying is relevant and appropriate before you bring your privileged experience into a minority conversation. And, furthermore, if the minority group reacts badly, don’t get angry at them! Reflect on the situation and use that knowledge to foster a better discussion next time.
- Intent Isn’t an Excuse
For the most part, I believe that all human beings have the best of intentions. Most of us don’t go about our days seeking to hurt people with words or actions. But, the result of our actions can be that it causes hurt/offense to others. So, while malicious intent may add icing to the cake, it does not dictate whether or not an offense has been made. “That wasn’t my intent,” all too often translates into “your reactions to what I did are invalid because I didn’t mean any harm.” The result is that it’s a defensive reaction that silences discussion on the issue and puts the words/actions above criticism. It, in essense, privileges the sayer/doer’s opinion/feelings over that of the minority person or group that they have offended.
- Make an Effort to Learn the Lingo
Standard language just isn’t equipped to deal with the concepts that minority groups have to engage with on a regular basis. And why would it? The language we’re taught is designed for the masses. But, just as you have to learn a bunch of new terms for things like science class, so to do you need to do so for minority groups. Not understanding terms can and will cause problems in the beginning - I know because I’ve been there. We all have. But just sticking it out and continuing to listen and learn will help. There are also places specifically designed for those who have no background in the area. In some, but not all, cases starting up a dialogue around a specific term is fine. What’s not fine, however, is telling a minority group that their terms are wrong. You, as the privileged participant, don’t get to define what is and is not appropriate usage in a minority space.
- Don’t Use the Language of Opression Against Minorities
I cannot stress this one enough. Your foray into identity politics will inevitably give you a new set of vocabulary with how to define oppression, discrimination, prejudice, etc. This can be a powerful tool if used right, but can also can turn you into a Grade A Asshole if used wrong. Don’t forget that, with many groups, a sincere apology and inquiry as to the correct terminology will go a long way. And remember that you will find that different groups have different definitions of what language is acceptable. It can be annoying to keep the rhetoric straight, but do your best and you should be alright.
- Call Others of Your Group on their Crap
Privilege is perpetuated in part by the silence of people when one of their own group does something questionable. This can be an inappropriate joke, or someone admitting that they committed a crime against a minority (eg. rape), etc. We’re conditioned to not say anything, especially if we’ll be the lone voice of dissent among a peer group, but when you tell the offender that hir behaviour is not cool, you may be pleasantly surprised by the group’s response. Or you may be ridiculed. I’ve had both happen to me, and with certain groups (like my family), I try to pick and choose my battles. With others (like most of my friends), I’ll risk losing them rather than keeping friends with questionable values. It won’t always work, and you have to find your own balance, but just saying something, or even backing up another dissenter, can go a long way to improving a situation. And, please remember, while it’s a good thing for you to be engaging in this, you shouldn’t expect to be rewarded by minorities for your efforts; oppression may be a new experience for you, but it’s something we live with every day of our lives.
- Revisiting “Politically Correct”
- How to Approach Minority Spaces
[Why Have Safe-spaces?] [It’s Not About You] [Accept Ranting Directed Your Way] [Opinions Are Not Equal] [Trust Needs to be Earned] [Benefit of the Doubt]Minority spaces exist, whether they be safe-spaces, places where we can go to not have to focus on priviliged groups for once, or even exclusionary ones. No matter what the purpose is behind these spaces, however, they are never truly free of people from the privileged group. Some are invited, some are not. It should go without saying, but I’m going to say it anyway: never go into a minority space uninvited.
- Why Minority Spaces are Needed
Contrary to popular belief, spaces for minorities only aren’t the same as spaces for privileged groups only. For the most part, it’s not about excluding but rather having a space to address our issues without told that they just aren’t as important as “real” issues. Since privileged groups have the privilege of being the “default” person (whether it be default gender, race, sexual orientation, etc), “default” spaces are naturally focused on them. In a nutshell: minority spaces are needed because they are the only place where minorities can truly focus on our own issues.
- Respect That It’s Not About You
There are many issues in this world that are about you, but minority groups are not the place to discuss them unless specifically invited. Yes, men are negatively affected by the patriarchy. Yes, they get raped too (and have their own set of victim blaming rhetoric). Yes, privileged groups can and do come into contact with prejudice and discrimination. Are those discussions valid? You bet. But, are they appropriate when the topic is on the discrimination and/or oppression of a particular minority? Not a chance. If you think the subject may not be appropriate, don’t bring it up. There’s always a later discussion, a new thread, and especially proper forums for discussions like those.
- Accept That Ranting May Be Directed at Your Group
We all need a rantspace sometimes. Whether it be to blow off steam at a friend, a collegue, a boss, or a group of people whose actions drive us up the wall, we will all whine, moan, and insult just to keep ourselves sane. In minority discussions, those rants will sometimes be directed at privileged groups. It’s hard not to be hurt the first time you hear someone say something like, “Ugh, I really hate men/white people/heterosexuals/what-have-you today!” I know. I’ve been there, done that, but then learned that it’s not about me, it’s about my privilege. It is not me, personally, that is being attacked in those rages, but rather the privilege I have unfairly been given to the detriment of the ranter. Instead of getting angry, I now try to do my best to apply the underlying points to my privileged position and give support to the ranter.
- All Opinions Are Not Created Equal
This is the phenomenon that’s talked about in The “What About the Mens?” Phallusy, in which a discussion on an issue that primarily affects minority groups is not allowed to continue unless “equal” time is given to how the same issue affects the privileged group. Inequal arguments do not deserve equal airtime! Repeating what was said in the Respect That It’s Not About You section: it’s important to acknowlege that sometimes problems happen disproportionately to minority groups and to give them the space to discuss that without having to digress into the “it happens to men/heterosexuals/Christians/etc. too!” debates. There is a time and a place for those discussions, but it is not on a thread focusing on minority issues.
- Trust Needs to be Earned
We often feel that it’s unfair to be judged by what others have done; for example, my family is Jewish and didn’t come to America until the early 1900s, why should I be blamed for slavery? The problem is that we, as privileged groups, tend to get the benefit of the doubt on many issues (ex. the practically obligatory “not all men/whites/heterosexuals/etc. are like this!” type arguments that preface so many posts on minority issues) without extending that same benefit to minority groups who are speaking out against oppression. The facts are, there is a long history of bad behaviour of privileged groups towards non-privileged groups and because of that, we need to realize that the onus is on us to prove ourselves as allies, not on the minority group to disprove it.
- Give Minorities the Benefit of the Doubt
I think this one is a hard one to accept, especially given the section on Trust Needs to be Earned. Yes, it’s unfair: why do privileged groups have to earn trust, only to then be told that they should give it to minority groups? Simply because minority groups, coming from an insider perspective, are in a position to understand their issues in a way that privileged groups, as outsiders, never can. This does not mean that you must agree with everything a person from a minority says about that minority group’s issues, but rather that it’s important to remember that what’s theoretical discrimination for you is an inescapable part of their lives.
- Why Minority Spaces are Needed
- Treat Us Like Humans, Not ‘The Other’
Don’t pull out the protest that you do this already. I’m sure you don’t believe that you are superior to any minority groups, and many of you probably think that you’re gender-blind, and colour-blind, and what have you. If you didn’t, I’m guessing you wouldn’t have bothered to read this far. But saying you believe in the innate equality of all people, regardless of minority status, and actually treating us that way are two very different things. And, when you understand your privilege, you’ll be able to understand that distinction and more-or-less where you fall.
- We’re Not Here For Your Pleasure
That includes viewing pleasure, entertainment, physical/mental enjoyment, and any other act that makes us into toys for your amusement. Having fun with someone? Cool. Thinking that you have some kind of right to their bodies, minds, time, etc.? Not so much. This includes assuming a person is (or could be) attracted to you simply because they don’t have a significant other. Or because they’re in your subculture. Or, really, any reason outside of them actually flirting with you. And then you need to believe them if you ask and they say, “No thanks.” No matter what their reason. No matter if they were flirting with you. Because, guess what? People have the right to change their minds without being shamed into doing what you want with phrases like “you led me on”. You are not entitled to anything from another human being, so don’t treat minorities like they owe you something - neither an explanation, nor a fuck, nor anything else.
- Treat Us As Individuals
What we want, how we react, our dreams, desires, lives, etc… Guess what? They’re just as diverse as yours. What minorities want is the right to all of the life choices that privileged groups have. In order for you, as a privileged person, to assure that, you need to not try to control our choices because of tradition, or your personal morals, or what have you. We have just as much of a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as you do - so instead of assuming something about us because of our gender/race/orientation/etc. try to get a sense of who we actually are.
- Communicate, communicate, communicate!
Contrary to what society teaches us, all relationships - from a conversation between strangers to one with a love interest - are partnerships. It’s a word we throw around a lot, but we don’t really know what it means. It may help to think about it this way: both partners have to continually earn, and reaffirm, that they deserve to be part of the relationship by treating the other person properly, communicating their needs and desires, and acknowledging the right of the other person to have the final say in what they do with their own bodies/minds/time. One thing to remember, however, is that, coming from a position of privilege, when you enter a minority space you need to first show that you are willing to be respectful of them before you can hope for them to be respectful of you. Why? Because in general society, people from your group as a whole are unwilling to form any kind of real partnership with people from our group as a whole. It may not be fair for you to be judged by the actions of others, but it’s even less fair that minorities are automatically treated with less than equal respect than the privileged groups.
- We’re Not Here For Your Pleasure
- If You’re Not the Problem, Then You’re Not the Problem
It all starts with one simple self-realization: you are privileged. Chances are, your reading that has made you feel defensive. While it’s a perfectly natural, and common, reaction, don’t let it get in your way of actually thinking about what the statement means. What you need to realize is that we all have privilege to some degree: white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege, etc. The hardest thing is to do is to get over your instinct to fight and say, “But I’m not like that!” If you can do it, you’ve completed the first step towards being a nice guy in reality rather than words.
But if you feel the burning desire to leap to your own defense and declare, “I’m not the problem!” then you just might be. The facts are, people who have followed the steps I’ve outlined will most likely not be the problem. If they are the problem, they accept that and will be working on a way to be less of the problem. If they’re not the problem, then they feel no need to protest the critique by saying that since they aren’t the problem, then the poinit is obviously invalid. So, whenever you feel an urge to defend yourself against a criticism about your privileged group, think about why you feel that way. Chances are, the more aware of your privilege you are, the more you’ll see it as a knee-jerk reaction about having your privilege challenged (even if you don’t, in fact, engage in the behaviour being ranted against).
This is just one list by one woman. But, at the same time, it is a list of frustrations (and hopefully some potential solutions) that I have experienced time and time again - sometimes from both sides of the fence - and that I have seen other minorities experience. I wrote this in response to a question, but also in response to the frustration of a man who felt that he was always told what not to do, but never enlightened on strategies for what to do. My hope is that what’s here can help privileged people who are struggling with their place in minority groups and who can’t understand why they get such negative reactions so often.
I intend to update this list when I feel something should be added or modified, so feel free to share your stories, voice your opinions (politely, of course), and what have you.2
1 I use the term “minority†not necessarily in the numbers sense, but rather in the sense as we are treated as if we are minorities in terms of rights conferred to us (ie. significantly less than “majority†groups).
2 This article originally posted for Blog Against Sexism Day.
Appendix I: List Origins
| Please note: This message was originally written at the top of the list, but since it is more of an aside I have moved it to the bottom underneath the Appendix heading. It is not necessary to the list itself, but has been preserved exactly as it was for those who want to know what events lead up to me writing this list to begin with. |
A while back I got into a discussion with OS.CB reader yocibox on his LJ about my open letter to geeky guys. For whatever reason (perhaps because I’ve been really thinking about it), I’ve been noticing a lot of posts griping about the entitlement guys I described in my letter. The open letter on Definition I highlighted here is one example of this.
I’ve been wanting to write more on this subject for quite some time, so it was rather perfect when yocibox asked me this question:
how does one successfully prove that one doesn’t consider said female gamer to be just a pretty face, and subsequently convey that the initial approach is not loaded with priviliged expectations?
Appendix 2: Why Write This?
I wanted to create something that was both a resource for anti-oppression activists dealing with privileged groups as well as something that would, hopefully, reach the people who were well-meaning but didn’t get why people who weren’t in their privileged groups got so angry at them sometimes.
I also looked around and saw a lot of lists dealing with specific privileges — male privilege, white privilege, etc — but none that dealt with privilege as a general concept and had as one of its core messages the realization that we all simultaneously benefit from privilege and are victims of it. I think understanding this intersectionality could go a long way to help people accept and understand that none of us — not a one — is totally exempt from privilege.
I don’t think this list has achieved its goals yet, but I do think that I get closer with every revise.
Last Updated: March 5, 2007.
[link]
March 8th, 2006 at 10:02 am
[…] Finally, in memory of the post which will not die (actually, I think that ongoing discussion is a good thing. but…still.), first, a refreshingly thoughtful and honest male perspective on privilege at Privilege Judo. And then, at Shrub, tekanji posts what basically amounts to what I said before, but possibly more calmly and politely. […]
March 8th, 2006 at 10:03 am
Terrific post! Very well-said and thorough.
March 8th, 2006 at 10:13 am
I’d like to add, for clarification (because this happened to be recently), that what you interpret as flirting does not give you a right to that person–even if she or he intended to flirt. It’s okay for someone to change her mind. Forcing someone into a relationship by accusing her of leading you on is a form of coercion.
As usual, you’ve written a fabulous post, Andrea.
March 8th, 2006 at 11:21 am
[…] Tekanji has written a wonderful post): How to Be a Real Nice Guy. I’m not going to pull out quotes because I highly recommend my male visitors (because I know you all are well intentioned and I hope do consider yourselves nice guys) read the entire post. […]
March 8th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
thanks for the post, as I have been waiting anxiously since you initially said you were preparing a post on the seemingly ubiquitous “nice guy” and his general failings. As I mentioned in our initial discussion I had some annoyance at the term nice guy being synonymous with asshole, mostly because whenever I found myself reading about someone using the “nice guy defense†I consistently thought to myself “well that dude was clearly an assholeâ€. Of course the fact that the statement in question invariably starts with the phrase “I’m a nice guy but…†or something similar leaves me more annoyed at people erroneously hiding behind the title. So it is obvious to me that my problem with the nice guy defense is not that it is called what it is, but rather that people engage in it. As a final less serious note, I have become enamored with the idea (unfeasible, possibly even stupid, yet entertaining) of reclaiming man as a neutral genderless form and reinstitute (something I realize never was instituted in practice) the proper prefix to denote maleness, namely wer. No longer would there be a difference between men and women, instead we would all be men (a non loaded gender neutral term for being homo sapien, like I said impossible, possibly stupid) and wermen and women would have different naughty bits (or sometimes the same naughty bits and different self identifying personality, or sometimes no naughty bits, or really all the different possible combinations of naughty bits and psyche that add up in such a way that a person feels they have to identify with one gender or another). Heck, I’m even open to jettisoning the word man, wermyn and womyn, just so the neutral state is inclusive, and the genders are parts of a whole rather than the current setup.
March 8th, 2006 at 1:52 pm
Well done! I understand your perspective a bit better, and you’ve helped to, ah, cement some ideas in my privledged head. But…
I’m still blury on this:
“Having fun with someone? Cool. Thinking that you have some kind of right to their bodies, minds, time, etc.? Not so much. This includes assuming a person is (or could be) attracted to you simply because they don’t have a significant other. Or because they’re in your subculture. Or, really, any reason outside of them actually flirting with you.”
Obviously, no one has any right to anyones body, mind, etc, ever (including in a commited relationship or long term friendship). That’s easy. From personal experiences, though, and as a male, I’ve found it difficult to tell when someone is being a flirt versus when they’re just being nice. (I’m not the only one, either). If I’m attracted to someone, I generally assume there is a possibility that they feel the same way about me, and I act accordingly. Am I supposed remain passive until they do something about it? If I’m not allowed to flirt until they flirt, and they’re not allowed to flirt unil I flirt, how does anyone start to flirt?
March 8th, 2006 at 7:10 pm
Rupert: If I’m attracted to someone, I generally assume there is a possibility that they feel the same way about me, and I act accordingly. Am I supposed remain passive until they do something about it? If I’m not allowed to flirt until they flirt, and they’re not allowed to flirt unil I flirt, how does anyone start to flirt?
This is obviously a real issue, and I know a lot of people have trouble with it. I don’t know about Andrea, but I personally would say that it’s okay to initiate flirting with someone you’re interested in. (Keep in mind, however, that some people’s definition of “flirt” seems to be: act like a total creepy asshole, make derogatory sexual comments and get pissed off when a woman doesn’t respond favorably, stare at her breasts, and try to bully a woman into giving you her number. Obviously unacceptable behavior, and it’s mostly this kind of “flirting” which upsets women so much. If you’re friendly and pleasant there probably won’t be an issue.) If they don’t respond by flirting back or seem uncomfortable, then…you don’t continue to flirt once you realize they’re not interested. It’s the polite thing to do.
March 8th, 2006 at 7:26 pm
[…] Takanji over at The Official Shrub.com Blog has just produced a great list called How to be a Real Nice Guy (and Nice Person). Although it was written to address issues specific to male gamers , it is easily extrapolated to include anti-racism. I do take issue with some of the chosen language (its no secret that i don’t like the term “minority”), but overall i’d suggest checking it out. There’s some good insight for allies. […]
March 9th, 2006 at 12:44 am
Andrea — This is an awesome post, and I am going to find some way to justify linking it to When Fangirls Attack even if I ends up writing a response to each of the points with comic book panels. Some of our visitors need to read this.
Actually, do you mind if I do that?
(Hey Rupert, in addition to what earlbecke said, if you’re that confused by flirting, it may help to toss in an “Are we flirting or am I confused?” to clarify things. It has less risk of offense than continued one-sided flirting, and it is always better to be sure of these things because sometimes the other person gets confused too)
March 9th, 2006 at 12:48 am
Hi—I came across this post linked from another blog (blackfeminist.org). It’s incredibly useful and I plan to pass it along.
Just a comment on section 3, “Call Others of Your Group on their Crap”: I would add to that the comment that it’s not necessary to report back to marginalized people the racist/sexist/homophobic/ablist/classist thing that the other privileged person said. For example, often a white friend will feel the need to tell me (a black woman) about the horribly racist thing that another white person said to them. Guess what? I already know that racism and other forms of discrimination run amock. This is particularly hurtful when the friend did not call the person on their crap. It’s as if they’re asking me for some kind of forgiveness for not standing up for what’s right. In fact, they’ve let themselves down. I can also understand that the friend might not’ve known how to respond and is asking for advice, but it makes it no less tedious to be the go-to person for snappy responses to bigots—snappy tho I am! : ) Thanks again.
March 9th, 2006 at 11:41 am
Thanks for the praise, everyone! I was hoping that not too much quality was compromised in my effort to get it up for Blog Against Sexism Day.
Lake Desire: Yeah, I was trying to get that point across with the accepting “no thanks” but when I update the list I’ll be sure to make it more clear.
yocibox: First off, welcome and thanks again for sparking my mind onto this post.
I 100% agree. If people would call these so-called “nice guys” on their asshattery, then I think it would be a less viable excuse for their bad behaviour.
I’m a fan of the word “hume” myself. I don’t think it’s inherently a bad thing to have subgroupings of people based on gender identification, but the current binary system is 1) male-normative, 2) way too contingent on perceived chromosomal state, 3) used to determine proper roles and actions in life, and 3) not nearly as inclusive enough for the multi-faceted states of our existence (eg. trans, genderqueer, and intersexed).
Rupert: My reply to you got too long to include in this, so plz see next comment.
Ragnell: Dooooo iiiiiiit. And tell me when it’s up so I can link to it. The whole comic book angle sounds fantastic!
Kimberly: That’s an excellent point. Do you mind if I put it in an update to this post? I’ll credit you with a link back to your site, of course ^_^
March 9th, 2006 at 11:42 am
Rupert: earlbecke and Ragnell have given some excellent advice, and I’d like to add my two cents to it.
But, that’s just it, it’s not easy because so many men do it without thinking about it. I’d even wager that you do it. It’s all about the invisibility of entitlement and privilege. You don’t see what your actions do to the women you’re doing this to because you’re conditioned not to see it.
Honestly? I would talk to some of the women you know, especially ones you’ve been interested in, and see what they say. Ask them if you’ve ever made them feel uncomfortable, or if they think that you have ever not taken ‘no’ for an answer, etc. And, if you do this, make sure not to argue with them about anything they say! Listen, go away and think about it for a few days, then come back with questions. Use what they say to change your mind, don’t try to change theirs.
Flirting is very much like being extra friendly. It’s not just a male thing; I often don’t know if someone is being flirty or friendly. But, the difference is that I don’t assume anything. Not even the assumption that there’s a possibility that they feel the same way. They may not be into my gender. Or my subculture. Or, really, just me. If I like someone, I always hope that they’ll like me back, but I assume unattracted to me until proven otherwise.
It’s not about not flirting, but rather regarding them as a potential friend first, and then being extra nice to them and seeing what they do. If they don’t return your flirting, then back off. If they flirt back, then pursue the friendship and if it comes to that ask them on out on a date. But you have to realize that a date does not equal anything but a date. At any time - from starting flirtations, to dating, even into any real relationship you might have with them - they have the right to say “no”, in whatever manner they choose, and it’s your job to accept that.
I’d also like to second earlbecke’s caution about the kind of “flirting”. I don’t have any experience with how you flirt, but again it may be good idea to go to the women in your life and ask if you ever give off a “creepy” vibe. The listening and not arguing applies here, too.
And I’d like to second Ragnell’s advice as well: good communication with your potential love interest is always a good foundation to lay early. It helps mitigate dating disasters and later on relationship angst (if things go that far).
March 9th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
Any other gamer geeks think of Bastok at the word hume? I didn’t realize it was used outside Vana’diel.
March 9th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Haha, I actually think more of PSO ’cause that’s where I first saw it. I haven’t seen the word use outside of video games, but it seems pretty common in Japanese RPGs.
March 9th, 2006 at 9:20 pm
Ragnell said:
Hey Rupert, in addition to what earlbecke said, if you’re that confused by flirting, it may help to toss in an “Are we flirting or am I confused?†to clarify things.
Ragnell, you absolutely rock. Ok, in fairness, your point absolutely rocks and I’m assuming someone who would make it rocks just as hard. I’m constantly frustrated by people who feel they’ve got to beat around the bush about everything. Altogether too often it’s more out of a desire to save face then out of any consideration for their fellow humekind. Please, please, please keep it simple! Most rational people will appreciate the honesty.
March 10th, 2006 at 3:09 am
Andrea — I need to compile enough “Green Lantern acting like an idiot” panels first, but I’ll tell you when. I know just who needs the lesson, too.
Perinteger — Well, it’s a decent assumption if I may say so myself. Thanks.
March 10th, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Brilliant post Andrea.
March 11th, 2006 at 2:55 am
[…] Amanda at Shrub.com: How To Be a Real Nice Guy […]
March 11th, 2006 at 11:14 am
You mean give up such male privileges as:
1) Military conscription.
2) Child support for children that are not yours.
3) Getting to pay for dates, holding doors open for womyn.
4) Being at the short end of the VAWA act (i.e. violence against women is bad, violence against men is ok).
5) Loss of children in divorce cases.
6) Being jailed on false charges of paternity and rape.
I’ll settle for the draft. How many women are ready to share in this male privilege. Are you ready to be marched on down to your armed forces induction center, have your heads shaved and then be sent to Afghanistan to fight for women’s equality?
March 11th, 2006 at 8:38 pm
Burton: Your trollish behaviour breaks discusison rules 4, 6, 8, and 10. If you are unable to comply with the rules of this blog you will be banned. I neither like nor tolerate trolls here.
Also, if you aren’t going to bother to actually read what I write, and #3 is specifically addressed in a post of mine linked from this one, you shouldn’t bother posting. Your obvious chip is not welcome here if all you’re going to do is judge from a place of ignorance. If you honestly wanted a discussion, you would have done better to ask my and my readers opinions on said matters, because then you’d be fostering an exchange of ideas and opinions instead of being an (incorrectly) assumptive asswipe.
And, lastly, thank you for illustrating exactly the kind of man who needs to follow the steps I’ve outlined. You’ve come into a minority space (a feminist blog) and tried to make the conversation all about you. Maybe if you actually listened to what I have said and do say you’d learn that your arguments are total strawfeminists, especially regarding this feminist.
March 12th, 2006 at 11:28 am
As a rather older male looking back on my life, I want to firmly recommend the “shut up and listen” method of learning. On the other hand I really rebel against “make oneself inoffensive and harmless” as a method of being in the world. Often the people who put themselves forward and make “mistakes” do better than those who worry endlessly about being taken for being right (or, even, being right with a particular group). (I realize am following a troll here so please don’t assume I’m endorsing mindless offensive/ insincere oppositionism as exemplified by a certain previous poster).
I would endorse most of the pre-relationship advice given here but I am afraid that it might be taken by shy or introverted or inexperienced persons (or those with little self-esteem or confidence) as a reinforcement of these tendencies, and I think this is bad in the long term, even if it helps them avoid “mistakes” in the short term. And what is wrong with (privately, in one’s own heart) cherishing the hope, or assuming the bare possibility, of someone’s attraction to oneself? Personally I think what is key is to act with hope but to accept (sometimes inevitable) disappointment with grace. (Which means, in part, that one’s disappointment is not the other person’s problem.)
And I would also strongly affirm that, while one does not have the right to the affection of some particular person that one has set one’s heart upon, one still does have the right to love and be loved by someone (eventually, and hopefully not too eventually). It can be easy for a person of a particular temperament to deny their own needs and desires altogether. This is, I think, in the long term dangerous, even if it renders that person inoffensive in the short run.
These haven’t been live issues in my life for twenty years. Yet I do worry about pitching advice to one certain kind of male actor, stereotypically full speed ahead and in need of some caution and “brakes,” and having it too easily accepted by someone of a different type of temperament, one who is trying to overcome a tendency to inaction and self-inhibition. Not that this tendency is any particular advice-giver’s problem in a personal sense either. But in the end I think we are all better off in a world full of people in fulfilling relationships, and so I would err in the direction of encouraging people to seek them out and even make “mistakes” rather than pulling back from seeking them because one is afraid of doing something “wrong.”
March 12th, 2006 at 11:43 am
I just have a simple neutral question for you. He asked a simple valid question, why didn’t you answer it? I’m honestly just curious.
p.s. I don’t know where you are from, but at least here in the States women are not a minority. In fact 50.9% of the people in the United States are women. Just thought I’d give you a little heads up on that.
March 12th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
Kallen, I think you need to reread tekanji’s reply to Burton. She said, “If you honestly wanted a discussion, you would have done better to ask my and my readers opinions on said matters, because then you’d be fostering an exchange of ideas and opinions instead of being an (incorrectly) assumptive asswipe.” A feminist analysis of the draft is valid, however, not when it’s hijacking another topic and in turn preemptively invalidating the participants who disagree.
Tekanji discusses her use of the word minority here. She knows women are the literal majority.
March 12th, 2006 at 3:00 pm
I will concede the later point. That is information I did not have. Though she is still using the word minority incorrectly. Not really important though.
But as for the former. I don’t believe it off topic to ask her, your or anyone elses point of view on females in the draft. I’ve never been able to get a straight answer. Consider it curriosity if nothing else.
But I would still like an answer.
March 12th, 2006 at 10:30 pm
Kallen: I am not using the word “incorrectly.” English words have many different meanings that can be ascribed to them, and if you had read the discussion rules (like you’re supposed to), you’d realize that this is a feminist blog that utilizes feminist terms, and the particular application of minority that I am using applies in such a context. You can question a usage of a word I use, but do not inform me what is right and wrong. You have neither the knowledge nor the right.
And, again, if you read the discussion rules you’ll see that it is off topic for him to “ask” (and I use that term loosely, because he was not truly “asking” anything, but rather trying to show me how close-minded I am by making incorrect assumptions about my beliefs) said questions on this thread. If he had followed the other rules and been polite, respectful, and obviously interested in a discussion, I would have engaged with his subject regardless. But he did not, and I’m not interested in justifying myself to a troll, especially since the answers he’s looking for are obvious if you 1) read what I have said in response, and 2) actually read my blog.
And, well, you want an answer and I want men to stop treating me like I owe them anything. Oh, and I’d like it if no one ever commented on my blog from a position of ignorance. Or, really, trolled it at all. But we don’t always get what we’d like to have. I don’t owe you an answer, and if you’re unwilling to read my posts (starting with this one) and see that some of the assumptions are answered explicitly and the others are pretty obvious to extrapolate from there… well, why should I bother to make the effort and tell you, when you aren’t making the effort of being respectful on my blog by actually reading before speaking?
March 12th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
humbition: I’m not asking men (or any privileged group) to make themselves “inoffensive and harmless” but rather to not be assholes, especially when engaging in a group that is at a societal disadvantage for no reason other than tradition. And I’m not asking privileged groups to be infallible; that’s an impossible request. I’m asking them to learn from the mistakes they will inevitably make - the mistakes we all inevitably make - instead of blaming the minority group for calling them out.
Nothing’s wrong with hope, but when it passes into assumption that’s when it often causes the person to act in ways such as being irrationally posessive, or overbearing, etc. And, frankly, I think the best thing to do is ask and then live with the answer. If your love interest says no, then accept it and move on. Too many men that I, my female friends, and the females in my larger communities have encountered have a huge problem hearing “no”.
And you don’t have the “right” to be loved by someone, because that love is not yours to control. You do not have the right to something that is someone else’s to give - not their love, not their time, not their respect, nothing. Anything they give you is a privilege, just as anything you give them is a privilege. And that privilege has the right to be revoked as soon as one person stops being worthy of having said privilege. It also has the right never to be given at all, even if the reason is simply that the person does not wish to give it to you, however genuinely nice you may be.
And I don’t really understand how you get “deny their own needs and desires altogether” from me, and others, saying that you need to be respectful when dealing with another person - which includes being careful how you flirt, communicating your desires as politely as possible, and then accepting whichever answer your love interest gives you regardless of whether it’s the one you want to hear. Treating someone like an autonomous human being should not be tantamount to “deny[ing] [your] own needs and desires altogether”, and if it is, then it’s you, as the person who feels that way, who has a serious problem, not anyone else.
I agree that we’re better off in a world full of fulfilling relationships - including aquaintenships, friendships, and even dealings with strangers. And my advice is aimed at getting well meaning people to step off and look at the way they treat other people. It’s about a whole mindset that is tangibly detrimental to all people who want to have fulfilling relationships in their lives. Part of that mindset is the unfortunate prevalence of men who believe that if they’re interested in a woman that they have some right to her love, time, body, etc. And, I’m sorry, but that mentality, which is accepted by most people in our society, is more detrimental to communication (and therefore fulfilling relationships) than my advice of taking a step back and examining yourself and your behaviour will ever be.
March 12th, 2006 at 11:12 pm
respect me and I’ll respect you.
“political correctness” can be rude and degrading - and can be considered hatred when it crosses to sexist/racist lines, no matter the target. Misuse of the English language not only is an insult to the Queen’s English but also to the origin of the terms. It’s also terribly confusing to those to whom English is not a first language.
There is no entitlement - don’t expect anything from me that you haven’t earned. (as someone who’s been homeless, jobless, starving and been threatened by excessively dangerous armed people, I’m not interested in any of these games)
Don’t assume membership in a culture. Just be aware of your own and act respectfully from it. (basic diplomacy - which everyone should learn) (this article says this in much longer terms, mixed in with a lot of other stuff)
all that said, this brings up any number of positive points and I do agree with a fair portion of it.
March 12th, 2006 at 11:22 pm
I’m getting pretty fucking sick of the trolls. Winterlion, for not reading nor respecting the discussion rules, you are banned. Thanks for playing, goodbye. Anyone else who fails to abide by the rules will have their comment deleted and will be banned. I don’t care if you have a good point somewhere in your bile or not, if you can’t play by the rules you are not welcome here. I will not tolerate my discussion being hijacked by misogynist assholes. This is not your soapbox, so stop treating it like it is. This is a feminist blog and if you are not willing to respect it, and me, then you will not be allowed to post here. End of story.
March 13th, 2006 at 1:04 am
tekanji, thank you for your detailed and thoughtful reply. Really I don’t so much disagree on the merits, but I’m concerned with how people, particularly young and/or inexperienced ones, might take what you say. Anyone with a certain amount of experience in life and a reasonably thick skin can certainly profit from it.
Saying that people have a right to love and be loved — as a general statement that says nothing about the right to this from some particular person, still less that one is entitled to this from anyone one has taken it upon oneself to have a crush upon. I suppose Hollywood, and a few centuries of literature before that, has confused a number of people on this latter point. But I stand by the strong “rights” statement, maybe I’m being a little provocative but of course what I mean is that everyone deserves to have the chance to love and be loved in their life. (well, perhaps not absolutely everyone…)
If there is really an epidemic of not accepting rejection in your circle then of course you are right to condemn this. Being possessive of someone who isn’t “yours” seems like madness of some kind. And how could I possibly be saying that someone has the right to love from someone who does not love them back? On the other hand your courtship advice seems strange, like someone who does not see the courtship aspect at all — it is not that one just goes about with a checklist, do you love me, yes, no, check, ok it’s no. “Flirting” and courtship is always difficult and risky and it is mentally healthy to do it with a certain amount of optimism, even if pessimism is the better calculator of the odds. You totally missed my saying that the person must accept what happens with grace, and that rejection is not the problem of the person doing the rejecting.
Nevertheless I think it is better to risk than not to risk, better to make mistakes than to submerge one’s needs and desires. Certainly you don’t explicitly advise anyone to do that yet in the midst of all the “thou shalt not”s you hardly paint an encouraging picture. Meanwhile all of us have to try to live and find love in the world as it exists, hopefully in a manner respectful of others. One can always do better, of course. The autonomy of others is very important to me and a key principle of ethics, yet sometimes I have had to rebel from even well-meant criticism — criticism that was even in some ways correct — in order to protect my own equilibrium and inner strength in a fragile period of my own life.
I don’t much sympathize with entitlement, but there is a certain minimum of entitlement that I think is everyone’s right without exception, and love is a part of that. Not from a particular crush object, of course, as I seem to have to reiterate. Certainly there are many people with many forms of privilege who think they deserve many things, because they confuse the hand they’ve been dealt with their personal merit. On the other hand, there are plenty of people (many who are privileged in gender and other ways) who don’t feel they deserve very much at all in life, and it is exactly that kind of people who can take the kind of criticism you and others offer and turn it inwards upon themselves like a knife (and twist). I am only suggesting to that sort of person that they not do so. Nor do I think it is really your intention that they do.
March 13th, 2006 at 9:50 am
I get that, but I am concerned about how young people, particularly young and/or inexperienced ones, are used and abused by other young people who have never heard anything even remotely like my advice. I hate it how too many young people, particularly young girls (which is a socialization issue; women are in general trained to take people’s problems onto themselves, while men are in general trained to take out their problem on other people), have shitty relationship after shitty relationship and then come to expect that unfulfilling relationships are par for the course.
And if my advice means that people are more hesitant about entering into unfulfilling relationships, well, I’m not so sure that’s any worse than what happens right now. Maybe we should hold off until we’re more confident about ourselves to do that; a clean slate is easier to work with than several years of horrible emotional baggage.
Definitely. I could rant for days about how Hollywood and “romance” - which is not so much actual romance and more the glorification of abusive behaviour.
It’s mostly a semantics issue. I think that using the word “rights” conveys too much of a possessive undertone, especially when dealing with a group of people who have been taught that women are theirs to possess (even if they would not consciously acknowledge such a thing).
I also would like to second that defintely not absolutely everyone, even under your definition, has the “right” to be loved. My first boyfriend was deliberately emotionally abusive to me - he cut me down as small as he could because he got pleasure out of hurting me. He’s moved on and done it to at least two other women. I don’t think he deserves to be loved; not only has he done nothing but cause pain in women’s lives (not just his girlfriends), but he has done nothing to earn the right to be loved by another human being and everything to show that he is incapable of properly loving them back.
That said, I still think it’s a better thing to convey that all relationships - from the kind of conversation we’re having now, to one with a love interest - are partnerships. Both partners have to continually earn the right to be loved (liked/respected/etc) by the other by treating them properly, communicating their needs and desires, and acknowledging the right of the other person to have the final say in what they do with their own bodies/minds/time. And, at any time if the partner fails to uphold their end of the relationship, then things need to be hashed out. If that doesn’t work, then the relationship should end; no one should ever put up with anything less than a completely fulfilling relationship.
You would be surprised how many people do think just that, and it wasn’t so much that I assumed you were one of them, but rather that I felt your word choice had a high likelyhood of conveying that message to someone who hasn’t sat back and examined how they interact with others. It is a madness to think you have a right to another person, but unfortunately it’s a maddness still condoned and encouraged by our society’s “boys will be boys” mentality.
That’s because communication in our culture is seen as “unromatic”. If we just shifted to romanticize respect, honesty, and openness rather than possessiveness, assumptions, and sneaky behaviour, then my guess is that particular complaint wouldn’t hold water any more. And, indeed, when you are in a community where explicit consent is a must for any kind of interaction (beyond “hi, how you doing” type stuff), you realize that it’s not the approach that’s sexy, but rather engaging in activities that both you and your partner are interested in - whether it be something as small as flirting or as large as having sex.
There’s a lot of “thou shall”s in there too - thou shall treat the people in your life with respect, thou shall listen to them and see how one can use their advice to improve oneself, thou shall be communicative and open, etc.
And, let me paint an actually bleak picture of relationships. One where my advice is never said, and never heard, and our concept of romance is never challenged. This is the picture of my teenage years, but it is not so dissimilar to most men-loving women’s first relationships with men.
Right from the start, it was all about my boyfriends (I use the term very loosely; some I just dated) cutting me down - whether it was my sexuality, my intelligence, my personality… I was never as good as they were. Communication was about them telling me what to do, what I was doing wrong, what they wanted. It was never about them listening. All but one pushed my boundaries past the comfort zone without a thought to what I wanted. There was even one who repeatedly tried to engage in oral sex with me even when I physically pulled him away.
I was probably more unlucky than most; I would say that three of them (my first boyfriend, the boy I describe above who wouldn’t take “no” for an answer, and an internet boyfriend I had for like a year) were geniunely bad people. I don’t know whatever happened to the last guy, but the first two continue to be sexual predators (they’re in the circle of friends of a guy I knew in highschool, so I still hear about them from time to time). The rest of them, however, I don’t think were predators; they were just taught that how they treated me was the proper way to go about things.
They were what people would consider to be “normal” guys. The kind of guys most women have their first relationships with. The only guys I would ever have known if a change in scenery hadn’t helped me get my self esteem back up to the point where I realized that no, I didn’t have to put up with subpar and abusive relationships.
They are the kind of guys that I want to learn from this advice because I think that they genuinely want fulfilling relationships. I also want girls to learn that they deserve to have my advice enacted on them; it is just as damaging for women to perpetuate the false idea that one must put up with unfulfilling relationships.
It breaks my heart when I hear women say things about putting up with bad male behaviour because “that’s just the way men are”. No, it’s not! I have had friendships with males who, regardless of attraction, have not made it clear that they wanted to fuck me, but rather made it clear that they wanted to be my friend. I have had guys who have liked me who have asked me out and gracefully taken my rejection. I have had fulfilling relationships with men based on communication, honesty, and openness - and unsurprisingly, those are the men I continue to keep in contact with even though we are no longer romantically involved.
It is that kind of relationship that is fostered by the advice I give, however “unromatic” and scary it may be. A partnership that is fulfilling to all involved, rather than being destructive to one or both people. I do think that people, for the most part, deserve to be happy - and as long as their happiness isn’t at the expense of another’s then I think they should seek it. But, my whole point is that, without knowing it, many men do pursue their happiness at the expense of others’ (particularly women, particularly the object of their affections). And, having been on the receiving end of that kind of unconscious entitlement, I’d rather have someone be overly cautions than underly so.
March 13th, 2006 at 9:59 am
Uh, just realized that I wasn’t being as clear as possible in one area, when I say:
I’m not trying to imply that men don’t deserve the same thing, but rather that traditional romance is such (men = active pursuers, women = passive pursuees) that men are the ones most likely to be doing this, while women are the most likely to be the ones taking it. As I emphasized above, it is a two way street and both partners - regardless of gender - deserve the advice to be used on them, and also should use the advice on their partner.
March 13th, 2006 at 10:04 am
Thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time (and the risk) and being specific and personal. I think it will help everyone put what you say in perspective and I certainly hope it wakes some people up.
March 13th, 2006 at 10:30 am
And thank you for the conversation. I always appreciate when people of differing points of view come in and actually have a dialogue with me. I hope you continue to read this blog and speak up with your opinion on matters, as I think you have much to offer in the way of a different perspective than myself and my regulars.
March 18th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Thanks for the replies. Also, good dialog. Hmmm, I guess that’s kinda all I’ve got to say, but I’ll add more if I think of more. Sorry it took so long, but the end of the term was busy, to say the least.
March 19th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
[…] Shrub.com: How To Be A Real Nice Guy […]
March 19th, 2006 at 11:44 pm
The Privileged Man’s Guide to Life…
Andrea Rubenstein has posted a very interesting outline for the majority set. It’s entitled “How to be a Real Nice Guy,” but I think it’s better understood as a guideline for how people with privilege (Whites, Males, Christians, Heterosexuals, et a…
March 19th, 2006 at 11:46 pm
Listen Closely…
I criticize some guidelines on how those of us with privilege should interact with those who don’t, but don’t let the post fool you–I agree with …
March 21st, 2006 at 10:05 am
“Call Others of Your Group on their Crap”
Can’t emphasize that enough. A group of coworkers and I were shooting the breeze one day, and one guy pronounced something he didn’t like to be “gay” - in front of a gay coworker, no less. Most of us just dropped our jaws … after a few frozen seconds I managed to blurt out “Um, junior high, much?” - not very articulate, I know, but at least it shifted the conversation around so we could call him out on his insensitive word choice.
March 21st, 2006 at 10:20 am
Good for you! Calling someone out can be scary and uncomfortable. I know that I still don’t know the right things to say, and I’ve been trying to practice what I preach for quite some time now.
The World of Warcraft guild I used to be in would use gay as a pejorative all the time. And, you know, me being queer, objected to it. But I was “oversensitive”. Right. And they weren’t assholes at all. Or homophobic. *grumbles*
March 21st, 2006 at 11:28 am
I have to object to your phrasing here:
“This includes assuming a person is (or could be) attracted to you simply because they don’t have a significant other.”
I think it’s perfectly safe, and reasonable, and technically correct, to assume that a person *could* be attracted to you. Because, in fact, any given person that you know nothing about could indeed be attracted to you, and the only time when it’s *not* OK to assume that is if they’ve made it explicit that they’re not attracted to you, (at which point you should stop assuming that it’s possible), or if you’re aware that their sexual orientation (or current relationship status) excludes the possibility. Otherwise, you don’t know, but you do know that there is a possibility.
On the other hand, I don’t think I disagree with anything else you’ve said, and I do think it’s important that people require a positive indication of someone’s attraction before they assume that it’s there. The presumption of attraction could be the biggest factor in how annoying some assholeish men are when hitting on women, and probably plays a prominent role in nice-guy syndrome.
I suggest you revise you statement to read “assuming a person is (or is likely to be) attracted to you”. I bet that captures what you were trying to get at, no? As long as a man is aware that there is a real, substantial probability that a woman doesn’t find him attractive just because he’s deigned to give her positive attention, and he tailors his actions accordingly, there’s not a problem, right? But that doesn’t necessitate assuming that there is no attraction until proven otherwise.
March 21st, 2006 at 11:30 am
Also, about half of your captchas are pretty much unreadable. (And my eyesight isn’t bad or anything.)
March 21st, 2006 at 11:53 am
Hey Andrea,
Thanks for a great post. A huge debate on privilege came up on a mailing list I was on some time ago and we could have used something this well laid out.
(I had a longer post but your code verification thing ate it.)
March 21st, 2006 at 11:59 am
Since it now seems to be working.
1) Concerning flirting: I am a shameless flirt, and try to make people aware of that as soon as possible so that they can ask me to drop it down a notch or six. (I also wholeheartedly support the ragnell “Are we flirting or am I confused” approach.) Mind you, I don’t assume flirting means “trying to get into bed”. Flirting is flirting. No assumptions are made (on my end) that flirting is anything more than enjoyable for its own sake or that it implies any agreement to anything.
2) Communication as unsexy: THANK YOU! I hate this particular attitude. One day, I need to write down my rant about how Hollywood romance is virtually indistinguishable from stalking.
March 21st, 2006 at 12:13 pm
LC, that’s a really interesting point. The commenter Charles at Alas, a Blog on this comment and some others, made the point very elegantly.
So much flirting seems to be based on a seduction model, whereby it’s assumed that the woman must be “tricked” into bed, where any talk about sexual attraction before it’s been fulfilled is a turn-off. This is inherently about power relations, because in an equal power situation, there would be no reason for any sort of coyness.
And an interesting part of his point is that a lot of people really tie up their sense of eroticism in power dynamics like that, so they’re turned off by communication, and then some people are just the opposite. And while we’d probably be healthier as a society if we were able to communicate openly about everything, that doesn’t necessarily mean we can judge people who eroticize power dynamics as being unfeminist. Because you can’t control how you were raised, and turn ons seem to be really hard or impossible to change as an adult.
Anyway, Charles had said it much better than me.
March 21st, 2006 at 12:30 pm
Sorry about the captcha, but so far I haven’t been able to find another one to use. And without it I get waaaaaaaaaay too much spam (we’re talking 1 to 2 posts an hour). I’ll check into modifying the way Veriword handles the images.
March 21st, 2006 at 12:54 pm
pdf23ds,
I think I may have read that long comment thread in the past. Charles`s arguments looked familiar.
I happen to not have an issue with the eroticization of power dynamics. We are social creatures and creatures of hierarchy in many ways, there are ALWAYS going to be some power dynamics involved in human interaction. Like most things, I think too much to be dangerous, though.
(Someone liking me is nice. Someone obsessed with me is creepy.)
I once got into an argument with someone because I insisted I never seduced anyone. It turns out the argument had everything to do with my visceral reaction to the word “seduced” and its underlying meaning of “tricked into bed”. I want someone to want me, not to feel like they had to be convinced or tricked into putting up with me.
March 21st, 2006 at 2:05 pm
pdf23ds said:
It’s a matter of semantics. Like the word “right” I think that “assume” conveys too much of a problematic undertone, especially when dealing with a group of people who have been taught that women are theirs to possess (even if they would not consciously acknowledge such a thing).
I will, however, look into clarifying that section in my next update.
LC said:
Yeah, I keep meaning to do that, too, but everytime I think about it I want to foam at the mouth like a rabid dog. Part of it, I think, is because the issue of “romance” is too personal an issue, seeing as it’s directly linked to a lot of what happened to me in my abusive relationship.
pdf23ds said:
The bleedingly stupid thing is that BDSMers need communicate openly about everything. Boundaries need to be drawn and redrawn when anything changes. When engaging in acts that have the potential to do a lot of harm, trust is a very fragile thing. And, frankly, I think that’s a much healthier way of handling relationships (the communication part) than most “normal” relationships which, as you both have said, often revolve around trickery and assumptions that are too easily made in error.
That’s one reason why I can’t stand to read feminist threads on BDSM; half of the commenters always come out with statements that deride and dismiss those of us who are into the scene. Frankly, I’d much rather put the blame on the patriarchy, which has forced us into a fucked up hierarchy, than hate on the people who choose to play with the power dynamics outright. Which is not to say that there’s no room for criticism of the scene, but criticism isn’t the same as outright condemnation.
March 21st, 2006 at 2:50 pm
If I understand Charles correctly, the “seduction” phenomenon he describes seems to much more mainstream than just the BDSM community. Rather, it describes a very 50’s “traditional” kind of courtship/dating ideal. BDSMers, being more extreme, tend to realize more often the dangers and thus the need for explicit communication. But how many males still feel entitled to some action after buying a woman dinner? And for how many men would it not feel like emasculation to explicitly ask a date something like “may we hold hands?” or “can I kiss you”? Not enough, I say.
For me, (as a guy,) it’s kind of interesting. I feel that if I were to be that explicit with a girl I was dating, it would probably get a really weird reaction. (And it has.) But beyond that, I don’t have a problem with it. (And I think it’s a good dating strategy too.) The first person I dated had to finally ask before she kissed me, because I never made any moves (another story). It was funny how much trouble she had bringing herself to do that. I think now that a lot of her hesitation was being caught up in expectations about the normal power dynamics that I didn’t share, being more egalitarian. (Part of it was obviously a valid fear that I just didn’t feel that way about her, but that doesn’t explain the extent of her hesitation, I think.) While I obviously think being explicit is far superior, it’s not an idea that’s really shared by many people.
March 21st, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Ack. I was afraid of that. The first two paragraphs were supposed to be nested block quotes. Woe is me. Adjust your screens, etc.
March 21st, 2006 at 3:05 pm
I edited yoru comment, using the LJ cheat of using an italic to indicate a quote.
I didn’t read Charles’ comment too thoroughly, actually; I was talking more about the overall phenomenon that happens when a feminist brings up the word “BDSM” in hir post.
100% with you. That was part of what I was trying to get at with this post; that kind of “romantic” BS is unhealthy, and can often lead to some form of abuse.
Enter the rant about the idealized form of romance
I think my love life would have been much better if communication was the standard, rather than some freakish unromantic thing that is only talked about and never done. But I’m not bitter or anything.
March 21st, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Thanks for the post! You made a lot of really great points and articulated very clearly some thoughts that I haven’t ben able to verbalize. I’m a white woman who moved from an all-white existence to a neighborhood/social circle/community where 99% of the people I interact with are black, and a lot of the points in your post really hit home.
March 22nd, 2006 at 9:15 am
Thank you.
March 22nd, 2006 at 1:00 pm
I agree with most of what you wrote. What I’d like to know it is whether these guidelines represent an ideal to be followed or are temporary measures to be used until society can reach a point where minorities are given the opportunities and respect that they deserve. While your post contains many suggestions for improving the way any person communicates (e.g. listen more than you speak), the overall framework of the guidelines assumes an inherent categorization of people into “minority” and “majority”. Where does equality fit in to the mix?
One of the guidelines, “How to Approach Minority Spaces”, explains that minority spaces are necessary because minorities need a safe place to communicate their feelings and ideas. To me, the inherent problem is not that there are too few minority spaces. Rather, the majority space does not respect the feelings and ideas of minorities. That beaing said, are these guidelines not simply a band-aid on a problem that requires a much bigger solution? I agree that minorities need a place to communicate safely, but doesn’t any space, majority or minority, have a responsibility to keep from marginalizing segments of its population? Isn’t that where a lasting solution lies?
I’d like to see if a set of guidelines can be developed that is free of the concepts of “established majority” and “marginalized minority”, one that welcomes unity in diversity. There will always be numerical majorities and numerical minorities in any society, but I hope that we can reach a point where we truly appreciate the power of one voice.
March 24th, 2006 at 11:20 am
If the hierarchies were no longer present, and everyone communicated on an appropriate level with everyone else, then there would be no need for this post. But, since it is not likely to happen within my lifetime, any good potential ally needs to come to terms with their privilege and actually sit down and look at the way they interact with the very groups they profess to see as equal.
It is not a “band aid” if people actually follow the guidelines - learn to accept and understand one’s privilege, and engage in a language of respect and equality with minority groups. It is not a one-stop solution to ending oppression, nor was it ever meant to be. It is simply one guide in which to convert people who think they are allies, and want to be allies, into allies in actuality and not just words.
It’s all well and good to say that the default spaces have a responsibility to stop being oppressive to minorities, but how, exactly, would one enforce that when the majority of privileged members of said spaces are unaware of their privilege, sometimes even willfully so? How can minorities feel safe in default spaces when their concerns are written off as “not real” and the majority groups continue to use oppressive language without being called on it?
We cannot even begin to address the “lasting” or “bigger solution” until our allies get off their asses and start doing things right. The very problem inherent in minority groups is that we are silenced by the privileged majority. By those who claim to be “colourblind” or “genderblind” or what have you, all the while being completely unable to respect the spaces that we have set up, not to mention silencing us when we speak out in a default space.
So, no, this is not an instant gratification solution to the world’s ills. But it’s a step in the right direction.
March 24th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
I guess that I look at the concept of true equality as a meme like any other. You can’t enforce the adoption of a meme by a society or space (default or minority). You can, however, lead by example and encourage the adoption of the meme to add more and more people into a minority space until it becomes the default.
I don’t see society as having only two distinct layers, privileged and minority. The terms “privileged” and “minority” are heavily contextual. I see layers within society, in which one minority becomes a majority in its own minority space and contains within it its own minorities. Within the scope of this blog, for example, you are the privileged. Your establishment of discussion rules and enforecement thereof demonstrate that in this limited scope, you and the people who share your views have power. As with any other, this space has its own minorities who deserve to be treated with the same respect as you deserve to be treated with in the privileged default space.
I am a heterosexual white male and I acknowledge my privilege. I am here on this site, reading commenting on this blog because I feel that I have a responsibility to listen, learn, and share with those that feel marginalized by the privilege that I carry. In this space, I am the minority. The fact that I share your belief in your guidelines does not change that. It does not remove my privilege, and it does not make me part of the majority here. Fortunately, this blog is a space where I don’t feel persecuted for simply being a heterosexual white male. I, and similarly privileged people, can express their opinions as equals.
As I have a responsibility to respect and support your needs when my privileged “peers” fail you, so you too have a responsibility to me and my peers when we venture here to share our thoughts and feelings with you. To me, creating spaces like this is the most effective way to bring about the change that we want. I feel that spaces that acknowledge that we all have responsibilities toward each other, no matter our privilege, are the ones that will be the most effective at attracting members from both sides of the fence. It takes acknowledging that we are all privilege and all marginalized, and it calls on us all to do what we can to support each other. I think that it sounds like a meme that can really catch on.
How do we start changing the world? Change our own and invite others to join.
March 24th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Careful with the reverse privilege. We hear that a lot when people try to negate us by saying, “But I’m descriminated against, too!” Those feelings are valid and may help show you how we feel all the time, but it turns the discussion back to the privileged being at the center. It shouldn’t be our job to educate the privileged, to stop our discussions in our places to bring them up to speed.
I don’t think a safe place for “minorities” is the place for the privileged to share the soapbox on an equal level… the latter group gets that enough in the mainstream they dominate.
March 25th, 2006 at 2:06 am
Amazing and brilliant. Just found this site today … count me in as a regular reader!
March 25th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
Lake Desire: I am not trying to negate anything that you say. I am expressing a differing opinion that I believe is not consistent with the privileged default space’s opinions but is consistent with the spirit of tekanji’s original post. If indeed I am not welcome to share my opinions here as an equal, please tell me now. I’ve had enough with men who discount the opinions of women because of their gender, and I’m not really interested in getting involved in a discussion with women who disount the opinions of men because of their gender.
If the problem that you are reacting to is that the privileged do not treat minorities as equals, then to me it would seem to me that more equal discussions would be welcome. I want you to express your opinions and I want to learn about the beliefs that you hold, and I feel that healthy discussion is the best way that I know to truly learn something from another person. If my questions and opinions are not respected, there is little chance that I will learn and truly incorporate what it is that you believe. If that is the kind of space that this is, I will respect and support your right to have your own space where you filter out opinions and input based on any criteria you choose. But I will express my disagreement by going elsewhere to find what I consider to be an equal exchange of ideas. I will probably continue to visit this site as a lurker so that I might continue to learn from what is discussed here, however I know that I won’t have as good an opportunity to learn as if I could participate in discussions. But, as you state very clearly, it is not your job to educate the privileged (e.g. me). On that we will have to disagree.
You seem to say that there is some sort of justice in discriminating against me because of my privilege as a heterosexual white male as you write “Those feelings are valid and may help show you how we feel all the time”. Sirens go off in my head like the 4th of July if ever in my ponderings I come to the conclusion that I am justified in discriminating against another. With all respect, I suggest that you take a second look to see if there aren’t sirens going off in your own.
March 25th, 2006 at 10:44 pm
I’m not justifying discrimination because I don’t feel that I have the power to discriminate against you based on my gender. I don’t believe it’s the “minority’s” job to educate the dominant group because they aren’t the ones participating in that particular form of oppression. For example, it shouldn’t have to be people of color’s responsibility to hault discussions in their places to educate the well-meaning white person. Dialogue to develop solidarity should occur–we all want a world without oppression–but the “minority” doesn’t owe it to the dominant group. This is tekanji’s post so what discussion does occur is her call, but I think we do share similar goals and can talk towards them.
March 26th, 2006 at 2:49 am
Patrick, from your comments here I feel that you are saying that I have somehow not respected you and your opinions. I am not sure why you may have gotten that impression, as I have given you the same respect I give any commenter here that abides by the discussion rules: I have let your comments stand, not warned you about anything you’ve said, and I’ve done my best to engage with you in the topic at hand. At most, it has taken me a relatively long time to reply to your comment and perhaps I have been a little short with you. Part of this is that I find it frustrating to have this discussion. I know that sounds like an insult, but please bear with me.
When I wrote this post, I knew there would come