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	<title>Comments on: More on harassment on the internet</title>
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	<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655</link>
	<description>Because we care about stuff</description>
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		<title>By: Jade Reporting &#187; 23 August</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655/comment-page-1#comment-171537</link>
		<dc:creator>Jade Reporting &#187; 23 August</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 00:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655#comment-171537</guid>
		<description>[...] Feminists are fine with being bigots if it’s just ableism More on harassment on the internet Give that man a cookie, er, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Feminists are fine with being bigots if it’s just ableism More on harassment on the internet Give that man a cookie, er, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: tekanji</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655/comment-page-1#comment-134991</link>
		<dc:creator>tekanji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:20:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655#comment-134991</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Reminder to everyone:&lt;/b&gt; This is not the place for personal attacks. I&#039;ve let comments slide because they were borderline and the rest of the content had a purpose, but that&#039;s going to stop now.

&lt;b&gt;Nic:&lt;/b&gt; That&#039;s the second time you&#039;ve insulted my blog. If that&#039;s what you &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; believe then stop commenting. It&#039;s as simple as that. But I&#039;m getting rather tired of your attitude and your lack of respect for me and my blog. I&#039;ve continued publishing your comments so far out of fairness, but it isn&#039;t fair to me -- or my commenters, or the purpose of using this blog to facilitate dialogue -- to continue giving a voice to someone who holds my opinions in such contempt. So this is your last warning: play nice or you won&#039;t be allowed to play at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Reminder to everyone:</b> This is not the place for personal attacks. I&#8217;ve let comments slide because they were borderline and the rest of the content had a purpose, but that&#8217;s going to stop now.</p>
<p><b>Nic:</b> That&#8217;s the second time you&#8217;ve insulted my blog. If that&#8217;s what you <i>really</i> believe then stop commenting. It&#8217;s as simple as that. But I&#8217;m getting rather tired of your attitude and your lack of respect for me and my blog. I&#8217;ve continued publishing your comments so far out of fairness, but it isn&#8217;t fair to me &#8212; or my commenters, or the purpose of using this blog to facilitate dialogue &#8212; to continue giving a voice to someone who holds my opinions in such contempt. So this is your last warning: play nice or you won&#8217;t be allowed to play at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Nic</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655/comment-page-1#comment-131799</link>
		<dc:creator>Nic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2007 04:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655#comment-131799</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Nic just happens to be an American/Western white male
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You&#039;ve got two out of three there. I&#039;m not &quot;white&quot;.
Not that that would really tell you anything about me, but judging by demographics seems to be the norm around here.

&lt;blockquote&gt;that we might have read them and *gasp* disagreed with the paradigm he recommends!
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Disagreement is fine. But ignoring the conclusion based upon that kind of research is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot when you talk about &quot;feminism&quot;. I don&#039;t have all the answers nor do I claim to have them, but searching for them is always a worth while pursuit. Just remember that if at any time, you disregard a contradictory piece of research against your theory and you don&#039;t &lt;b&gt;change your theories&lt;/b&gt; then you aren&#039;t really seeking answers. Then you&#039;re just seeking justification for your views.

Judging from tek&#039;s response, I see that validation of personal views is more the purpose for this blog rather than evaluating any theoretical application or social science discovery.

My bad...

&lt;blockquote&gt;Sounds JUST like NotMichael. If they didn’t/don’t see it happen, it didn’t/doesn’t exist.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Right, just like you, and everyone alive...
A tree falls in a forest. You don&#039;t care, it&#039;s not in your neighborhood and it didn&#039;t kill anyone you knew. That&#039;s just how people work. 
Our individual awareness rarely ventures beyond a given time or space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Nic just happens to be an American/Western white male
</p></blockquote>
<p>You&#8217;ve got two out of three there. I&#8217;m not &#8220;white&#8221;.<br />
Not that that would really tell you anything about me, but judging by demographics seems to be the norm around here.</p>
<blockquote><p>that we might have read them and *gasp* disagreed with the paradigm he recommends!
</p></blockquote>
<p>Disagreement is fine. But ignoring the conclusion based upon that kind of research is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot when you talk about &#8220;feminism&#8221;. I don&#8217;t have all the answers nor do I claim to have them, but searching for them is always a worth while pursuit. Just remember that if at any time, you disregard a contradictory piece of research against your theory and you don&#8217;t <b>change your theories</b> then you aren&#8217;t really seeking answers. Then you&#8217;re just seeking justification for your views.</p>
<p>Judging from tek&#8217;s response, I see that validation of personal views is more the purpose for this blog rather than evaluating any theoretical application or social science discovery.</p>
<p>My bad&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>Sounds JUST like NotMichael. If they didn’t/don’t see it happen, it didn’t/doesn’t exist.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Right, just like you, and everyone alive&#8230;<br />
A tree falls in a forest. You don&#8217;t care, it&#8217;s not in your neighborhood and it didn&#8217;t kill anyone you knew. That&#8217;s just how people work.<br />
Our individual awareness rarely ventures beyond a given time or space.</p>
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		<title>By: littlem</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655/comment-page-1#comment-127978</link>
		<dc:creator>littlem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655#comment-127978</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m gonna guess, from the &quot;tenor of entitlement&quot; in the phraseology, that Nic just happens to be an American/Western white male.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;Might I support your antithesis by recommending ...&quot;&lt;/i&gt;  The implication being that whoever he&#039;s doing the &quot;recommending&quot; for isn&#039;t as well-read; we haven&#039;t heard of those authors.  (Not that we might have read them and *gasp* disagreed with the paradigm he recommends!  OH NOES111!!!1)

&lt;i&gt;&quot;It is not that I am not informed or uneducated, it’s just that my life experience tells me otherwise.&quot;

&quot;What I read here contrasts starkly with what I see in the world.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Mmm hmmm.  Sounds JUST like NotMichael.  If they didn&#039;t/don&#039;t see it happen, it didn&#039;t/doesn&#039;t exist.

To Tekanji:  I really enjoyed the fact that the first part of the last sentence of your post says &quot;Stay in school.&quot;

Reading is Fundamental!

Hee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m gonna guess, from the &#8220;tenor of entitlement&#8221; in the phraseology, that Nic just happens to be an American/Western white male.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Might I support your antithesis by recommending &#8230;&#8221;</i>  The implication being that whoever he&#8217;s doing the &#8220;recommending&#8221; for isn&#8217;t as well-read; we haven&#8217;t heard of those authors.  (Not that we might have read them and *gasp* disagreed with the paradigm he recommends!  OH NOES111!!!1)</p>
<p><i>&#8220;It is not that I am not informed or uneducated, it’s just that my life experience tells me otherwise.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;What I read here contrasts starkly with what I see in the world.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Mmm hmmm.  Sounds JUST like NotMichael.  If they didn&#8217;t/don&#8217;t see it happen, it didn&#8217;t/doesn&#8217;t exist.</p>
<p>To Tekanji:  I really enjoyed the fact that the first part of the last sentence of your post says &#8220;Stay in school.&#8221;</p>
<p>Reading is Fundamental!</p>
<p>Hee.</p>
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		<title>By: tekanji</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655/comment-page-1#comment-124951</link>
		<dc:creator>tekanji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:31:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655#comment-124951</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Minna said:&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;Why the hell should bullies and trolls have the protection of no consequence for their actions?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Exactly! All it does it teach them that they can get away with harassing people, which only encourages them to do it more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Minna said:</b></p>
<blockquote><p>Why the hell should bullies and trolls have the protection of no consequence for their actions?</p></blockquote>
<p>Exactly! All it does it teach them that they can get away with harassing people, which only encourages them to do it more.</p>
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		<title>By: Minna</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655/comment-page-1#comment-124883</link>
		<dc:creator>Minna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:12:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655#comment-124883</guid>
		<description>I never liked the &#039;don&#039;t give &#039;em the power&#039; approach.  I got that from people all the way through school, and you know what?  Ignoring bullies didn&#039;t do jack shit.  And if after six months it isn&#039;t doing jack shit, then maybe it&#039;s time to actually support the person who&#039;s being harassed, instead of just telling them to &#039;ignore it&#039;, and &#039;not give them the power&#039;.  Why the hell should bullies and trolls have the protection of no consequence for their actions?

If it&#039;s that easy to find out where he works, then he&#039;s reflecting badly upon his company, and his company has the right to know the sort of shit that he&#039;s attaching to their name.  Props to ABW for refusing to just let it slide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never liked the &#8216;don&#8217;t give &#8216;em the power&#8217; approach.  I got that from people all the way through school, and you know what?  Ignoring bullies didn&#8217;t do jack shit.  And if after six months it isn&#8217;t doing jack shit, then maybe it&#8217;s time to actually support the person who&#8217;s being harassed, instead of just telling them to &#8216;ignore it&#8217;, and &#8216;not give them the power&#8217;.  Why the hell should bullies and trolls have the protection of no consequence for their actions?</p>
<p>If it&#8217;s that easy to find out where he works, then he&#8217;s reflecting badly upon his company, and his company has the right to know the sort of shit that he&#8217;s attaching to their name.  Props to ABW for refusing to just let it slide.</p>
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		<title>By: tekanji</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655/comment-page-1#comment-124450</link>
		<dc:creator>tekanji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2007 07:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655#comment-124450</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I now assume only like-minded individuals can post here?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You know, if that&#039;s what you got from my post then by all means run with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I now assume only like-minded individuals can post here?</p></blockquote>
<p>You know, if that&#8217;s what you got from my post then by all means run with it.</p>
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		<title>By: Nic</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655/comment-page-1#comment-124397</link>
		<dc:creator>Nic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2007 00:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655#comment-124397</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;From both your posts, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. ABW’s post wasn’t a continuation of the situation; it was a statement of its end and how she concluded things.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Odd. I didn&#039;t hint or assume that the situation was still continuing. I was merely commenting on it and asking your perspective concerning it. And again, there are no accusations.

&lt;blockquote&gt;What you don’t understand, though, is that you are creating a problem every time you post on a thread that isn’t devoted to Privilege 101. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;i&gt;Quoi?&lt;/i&gt; 

So, I&#039;m a problem if I voice my opinion without adherence to the concept of &quot;privilege&quot;? I certainly don&#039;t have to believe in Jesus Christ to speak or relate with Christians, and I&#039;m certainly not viewed as a problem by them because of my differing beliefs. You might want to be a little more flexible on this one as well.

&lt;blockquote&gt;If you know and understand, then work within that frame. Working within a frame doesn’t mean you agree with it, but it does mean that — at least when you post here — that you are respecting me and my space.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t see how speaking outside the given context is somehow not respecting you and your space. If there&#039;s a miscommunication, I&#039;ll help to resolve it (like earlier when you said I was accusing others) but don&#039;t assume I&#039;m disrespecting you or invading your space. I&#039;ve shown great undue respect so far despite the disposition. However, limiting my thoughts and words for the sake of context would mean limiting the understanding between one another. I now assume only like-minded individuals can post here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>From both your posts, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. ABW’s post wasn’t a continuation of the situation; it was a statement of its end and how she concluded things.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Odd. I didn&#8217;t hint or assume that the situation was still continuing. I was merely commenting on it and asking your perspective concerning it. And again, there are no accusations.</p>
<blockquote><p>What you don’t understand, though, is that you are creating a problem every time you post on a thread that isn’t devoted to Privilege 101. </p></blockquote>
<p><i>Quoi?</i> </p>
<p>So, I&#8217;m a problem if I voice my opinion without adherence to the concept of &#8220;privilege&#8221;? I certainly don&#8217;t have to believe in Jesus Christ to speak or relate with Christians, and I&#8217;m certainly not viewed as a problem by them because of my differing beliefs. You might want to be a little more flexible on this one as well.</p>
<blockquote><p>If you know and understand, then work within that frame. Working within a frame doesn’t mean you agree with it, but it does mean that — at least when you post here — that you are respecting me and my space.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t see how speaking outside the given context is somehow not respecting you and your space. If there&#8217;s a miscommunication, I&#8217;ll help to resolve it (like earlier when you said I was accusing others) but don&#8217;t assume I&#8217;m disrespecting you or invading your space. I&#8217;ve shown great undue respect so far despite the disposition. However, limiting my thoughts and words for the sake of context would mean limiting the understanding between one another. I now assume only like-minded individuals can post here?</p>
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		<title>By: Sigel Phoenix</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655/comment-page-1#comment-123765</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigel Phoenix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655#comment-123765</guid>
		<description>Thanks for linking this, tekanji. It&#039;s just the kind of boost I need when I&#039;m dealing with trolls myself - so I can see that yes, trolling behavior is wrong, and yes, I have the right to stop it when it invades my space.

It also shows just how far entitlement goes, in people like Michael. *shudder*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for linking this, tekanji. It&#8217;s just the kind of boost I need when I&#8217;m dealing with trolls myself &#8211; so I can see that yes, trolling behavior is wrong, and yes, I have the right to stop it when it invades my space.</p>
<p>It also shows just how far entitlement goes, in people like Michael. *shudder*</p>
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		<title>By: tekanji</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655/comment-page-1#comment-123656</link>
		<dc:creator>tekanji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2007-10-07_655#comment-123656</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Nic said:&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;So, I ask, if Nora seems to think that harassment (Arguendo: resistance) “kills blogs”, why does not the opposite happen as in Michaels case? If you harassed Michael, do you think he would stop or continue? And why do you think so?&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

Because no one is harassing Micheal? The only time that ABW ventured into territory that could be considered his &quot;space&quot; was to inform his company of his actions. Her actions aren&#039;t comparable with him coming onto her space, continuing to try to post after being banned, and then e-mailing her to continue his abuse when he realized he wasn&#039;t being published.

From both your posts, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. ABW&#039;s post wasn&#039;t a continuation of the situation; it was a statement of its end and how she concluded things. It was a statement of her saying that harassment wasn&#039;t going to be tolerated, even if she had to take it to real life to get it to stop. She isn&#039;t rampaging after Micheal and trying to hurt him; she is simply doing what it takes to make him go away and stay away. And, as far as I know, after one last e-mail from him she hasn&#039;t heard from him since, so it appears that it worked.

&lt;blockquote&gt;It is not that I am not informed or uneducated, it’s just that my life experience tells me otherwise. Please don’t talk down to me simply because we don’t see things in the same way.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What you don&#039;t understand, though, is that you &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; creating a problem every time you post on a thread that isn&#039;t devoted to Privilege 101. You&#039;re ignoring the frame that is being put on the subjects simply because you disagree with it, and therefore you&#039;re forcing me to go back and explain to you the same concepts over and over again because &lt;i&gt;that is the context in which my post is taking place.&lt;/i&gt; 

If you know and understand, then &lt;b&gt;work within that frame&lt;/b&gt;. Working within a frame doesn&#039;t mean you agree with it, but it &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; mean that -- at least when you post here -- that you are respecting me and my space. But continually putting &lt;i&gt;your&lt;/i&gt; frame onto &lt;i&gt;my&lt;/i&gt; conversations translates into you disrupting conversations because your interpretation of what was said has nothing to do with the actual content of the conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Nic said:</b></p>
<blockquote><p>So, I ask, if Nora seems to think that harassment (Arguendo: resistance) “kills blogs”, why does not the opposite happen as in Michaels case? If you harassed Michael, do you think he would stop or continue? And why do you think so?</p></blockquote>
<p>Because no one is harassing Micheal? The only time that ABW ventured into territory that could be considered his &#8220;space&#8221; was to inform his company of his actions. Her actions aren&#8217;t comparable with him coming onto her space, continuing to try to post after being banned, and then e-mailing her to continue his abuse when he realized he wasn&#8217;t being published.</p>
<p>From both your posts, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. ABW&#8217;s post wasn&#8217;t a continuation of the situation; it was a statement of its end and how she concluded things. It was a statement of her saying that harassment wasn&#8217;t going to be tolerated, even if she had to take it to real life to get it to stop. She isn&#8217;t rampaging after Micheal and trying to hurt him; she is simply doing what it takes to make him go away and stay away. And, as far as I know, after one last e-mail from him she hasn&#8217;t heard from him since, so it appears that it worked.</p>
<blockquote><p>It is not that I am not informed or uneducated, it’s just that my life experience tells me otherwise. Please don’t talk down to me simply because we don’t see things in the same way.</p></blockquote>
<p>What you don&#8217;t understand, though, is that you <i>are</i> creating a problem every time you post on a thread that isn&#8217;t devoted to Privilege 101. You&#8217;re ignoring the frame that is being put on the subjects simply because you disagree with it, and therefore you&#8217;re forcing me to go back and explain to you the same concepts over and over again because <i>that is the context in which my post is taking place.</i> </p>
<p>If you know and understand, then <b>work within that frame</b>. Working within a frame doesn&#8217;t mean you agree with it, but it <i>does</i> mean that &#8212; at least when you post here &#8212; that you are respecting me and my space. But continually putting <i>your</i> frame onto <i>my</i> conversations translates into you disrupting conversations because your interpretation of what was said has nothing to do with the actual content of the conversation.</p>
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