The solution to feeling uncomfortable about being made aware of how one’s own privilege (male/white/straight/whatever) is part of the problem is not to make the oppressed shut up and go away to spare your feelings, but rather to start working to end the privileged/disempowered situation.

Well said.

And I’m sorry, but if my choices in a social space - be it online, or “IRL” where it has quite frequently happened to me - are between me silently eating shit and smiling about it, so as not to make the bullies and their enablers feel uncomfortable, or going away quietly so as not to make the Privilegeboys feel uncomfortable, well, that’s not much of a choice now, is it? And why should I and people shaped like me always be the ones to be made to feel uncomfortable and more than that, unwelcome and dehumanized? Where is this moral obligation to be the societal punching bag and never a brick wall, because of my plumbing, eh?

And guys who feel uncomfortable having sexist guys called out for their sexism - well, either you’re actively part of the problem, or you’re passively part of the problem - like the guy I still won’t go out with, over fifteen years after the offense, because he pretended not to see it - or me - when his gaming buds were harrassing me in the hallways, but wanted to be friends and more than just friends, when they weren’t around to make fun of him for liking the school pariah…

(and no, I’m not actually angry at him - any more; I just have no respect for him as a human being and since I know what his character is worth, and his chivalry, I have nothing to say to him any more, nor anything I want to hear from him.)

The solution to feeling uncomfortable about being made aware of how one’s own privilege (male/white/straight/whatever) is part of the problem is not to make the oppressed shut up and go away to spare your feelings, but rather to start working to end the privileged/disempowered situation. Lots of guys are doing this, already, and not either whining about how unappreciated they are, or expecting cookies for it, either!

Not that Real Life has done this completely and always successfully, but this would be, after all, why my managers have to go through special training about sexual harassment, etc. Even when speaking up “works” it’s doesn’t work nearly as well as reminding people to be respectful in the first place. In large part because it gives people who do want to speak up a certain amount of safety in doing so. Not that all such training are equally good, but it’s still much better than just expecting the people with less power to bear the full burden of being the whistleblowers.

True. I have to add though, that I think that demonstrates a greater disconnect between virtual environments and realtime environments; while there is less consequence for harrassment in-game, there is also less consequence for speaking out against harrassment in-game. The worst that happens is that the game is no longer fun to play, and you move on to a new one. It’s sad, but not the end of the world.

In life, though, the consequences could be as grave as needing to find a new job — even though most companies have policies in place to prevent retaliation, that’s not going to stop your fellow employees from thinking poorly of you, and the subtle shift in attitude in and of itself probably doesn’t constitute “retaliation.” So it’s a lot harder to speak out in real life.

All that (tangent) says to me, though, is that we need to work harder on that ounce of prevention in the first place.

But, seriously, y’all, no more deraling! The next one that I get, even if it has other points that are on-topic, won’t make it through. Period.

Having recently gotten into a big flame war where someone repeatedly accused me of being uncivil and the like - all the while callling me “mickles”, may I just say that the irony of that statement is just astounding.

You know, funny thing is that the only people who ever get on my case about being “civil” are the ones who are first timers who I’ve never seen before being snarky in their first post here in a way that totally ignores the golden rule concerning this blog being like my house. I had no obligation to be nice to the gf of a friend who started fights over politics with guests at my birthday party, and I sure as hell have no obligation to be nice to guests on this blog who don’t bother to give me, and more importantly my point, the baseline of respect.

Not that all such training are equally good, but it’s still much better than just expecting the people with less power to bear the full burden of being the whistleblowers.

Exactly. It’s one thing to make the personal decision to speak up (or not), but the burden should not be placed on the people who are being harassed, but rather we should (as a collective society) be trying to stop the harassment in the first place.

You know Tek….usually civilized people can engage in reasonable discourse without name calling.

Having recently gotten into a big flame war where someone repeatedly accused me of being uncivil and the like - all the while callling me “mickles”, may I just say that the irony of that statement is just astounding.

(and I know the topic is closed but)

Dear God - the post itself included the words

If you’re not the problem, you’re not the problem. But some men are…….No one is “lumping all the men” into that stereotype, but rather commenting on the general attitude of many men who populate the gaming community.

Calling him a Nitpick Troll was being overly generous.

(back to the topic)

But, see, focusing on personal action to the exclusion of examining the underlying causes only lets harassers continue harassing without consequences

Yup. Not that Real Life has done this completely and always successfully, but this would be, after all, why my managers have to go through special training about sexual harassment, etc. Even when speaking up “works” it’s doesn’t work nearly as well as reminding people to be respectful in the first place. In large part because it gives people who do want to speak up a certain amount of safety in doing so. Not that all such training are equally good, but it’s still much better than just expecting the people with less power to bear the full burden of being the whistleblowers.

…and yes, unless my real name is “Nitpick Troll” (which it isn’t), what you said was name calling and reasonable discourse is not based on that kind of thing last I checked.

Don’t be disingenuous; your argument doesn’t even work grammatically with what I said, because I used the term being which automatically refers to the concept behind the term rather than using it as a term of address. Accurately labeling behaviour that is in line with what a Nitpick Troll does isn’t “name calling” it’s telling you that the comment you wrote was one step away from trolling.

If you don’t know what a Nitpick Troll is, it’s someone who picks up on a tiny “problem spot” in the post which is only tangential to the point, treating as if it somehow invalidates the post (which, given the lack of context in your first comment it sure looked like you were doing), and derailing the thread with conversation on the tangential point — which, congratulations!, you just did.

Anyway, you can feel however you want to feel about this conversation, but perhaps next time if you don’t want a snarky response you should be more polite in your initial comments. If you had simply said something along the lines of, “I see your point, but I would just like to say that, in terms of semantics, there’s a fine line between ‘generalizing’ and ‘lumping’ that I think could use a little airtime. [Insert your opinion on the matter.]” the response would have been much different, and most likely much more on topic.

My original comment was far from uncivilized…it was simply a call for caution when you look a subgroup of people and make generalizations about them. Surely as a feminists, you know this.

Darren, if you believe that feminists already understand this precept, why did you feel it was necessary to reiterate it?

Now am I saying that these atrocities equal in any way the commentary at hand and the subjects it is discussing? Of course not. the very idea is ludicrous. However, the point(s) do bring up a very clear picture of our history, and of how easily “commenting on a general attitude” turns into “lumping”… often with horrific consequences.