Mecha, that description sounds a lot like the women’s college I went to. And let me tell you it was really weird being on the other side for once for me too. It really highlighted how I was a part of a “minority” in the “real world” and definitely changed my perspective on things. In large part because it was 24/7 and not just a few hours a week. Coming home after being away at college is always a bit jarring the first time you do it, but it was especially disorienting to leave my college’s subculture. Not that we didn’t do plenty of things that I now question, especially in terms of not really being feminist, but it was really hard not to see and react to all the sexism around me whenever I went other places.

It also made it easier for me to deal with other people being offended by stuff that I didn’t actually think was offensive. It wasn’t such a big deal to accept that people would misunderstand the point of my inside joke t-shirt and that there are times when I shouldn’t wear it out of respect for their feelings - because I had a space to go back to where I could and would be understood, so it didn’t mean that I was silenced.

I think that’s why some communities - such as the fanfiction communities you encountered - that are dominated by minorities end up doing the same things they rail against. The minorities in those communities don’t always have another place to go to where they can wear their inside joke t-shirt, so when they are called on it, they tend to see it more as an assault on their ability to speak their minds, period, than a request for mutual respect.

The fact that people in privileged groups tend to overreact because they are often blind to their privilege doesn’t really help the situation either.

I know it didn’t help my brother’s argument that my t-shirt was offensive. I actually ended up wearing it less at home because of something that I said, not because of his arguments. He was arguing that is was offensive no matter what, because he thought it meant something that it didn’t. (It said “where women rule” and had a picture of a mad Susie and a scared Calvin.) My point was that it made sense and wasn’t offensive when taken in context. But in saying that I realized that part of the context was it being from a feminist leaning women’s college. While I still think my brother should have been able to understand that it was making fun of stereotypes of feminists, not men themselves, I also realized that most people would have no idea about the context. And (unlike a lot of other things, such as being able to express my sexuality) I don’t really think that the world needs to change so that I can wear that t-shirt without generating negative comments, I just think I deserve a place where I can wear it without constantly getting nasty looks. It doesn’t even need to be a public space, just a space.

I understand your concern … I think that it should be handled on a case-by-case basis, looking at both kinds of privilege and how they are being used in regards to the specific situation.

Fair enough; I just got a jolt at first glance.

I understand your concern, and my quoting of that part should definitely not be taken as a blanket endorsement from me to silence the voices of gay men in slash communities. It’s a fine line because of the dynamics at work, and I can see both ends of it. Personally I think that it should be handled on a case-by-case basis, looking at both kinds of privilege and how they are being used in regards to the specific situation.

That seems fair to me.

I think the thing that bothers me the most about that post series by Yonmei, after reading them all, is that the messages sent in it are very clear to my eyes: Men are tolerated, but not accepted, in this subcommunity, whether they are fans or not. I think this is due to my definition of ‘acceptance’ into a community. The number of times that, in those threads, it is made clear that ‘Men are a heavy minority, and as such, have no expectation of rights/voice’ is a bit jarring to the ears when you think that minority != need to be silent. And yet they say that it’s fine if men are around. As long as they don’t speak up. That is sorta fair to do in a minority space, but I feel one should be honest about that, as opposed to dissembling. It also creates a massive division in a fiction not based on the content, but based on the authors, and that’s just flat out weird to me. ‘It’s slash if it’s female authors, but it’s only slash by male authors if they don’t want to speak up about their opinions or experience.’

I suppose that’s their right, but not everyone comes to slash with the expectation that it is female only. I know I didn’t, back when I actually had time to write fanfiction. It seems to me that finding something you like/love, only to be told ’sorry, only women do this, your voice/opinion isn’t wanted’… well, it’s not (always) the same power structure as what women are told so often, about so many subjects (gaming, science, military, etc.), but it seems like it should bother people. And not just be a matter of majority privilege. And be recognized by groups that recognize that privilege is a problem, as opposed to dismissed. I’m unsure if I’m missing something.

In mental contrast, with regards to the second example of your post, the Iris Network and Cerise doesn’t bother me at all. In fact, I think it’s awesome. I signed up as a member so I could watch, and maybe contribute a little. Part of why it _doesn’t_ bother me, I think, is because women and other minorities do often need spaces separate from men, about the same topic, especially when the men dominated that topic, so that their issues can be discussed. But slash is not quite that same dynamic in my mind (it’s not just stories outside the mainstream. It’s a specific _type_ of stories separated from the mainstream, which doesn’t express that topic at all. If you like that type of stories and are male… what then?) I’m still fleshing that thought line out, though. I don’t think that ‘males breaking off from a presently defined as singularly female space’ is a good goal.

-Mecha

Privilege is believing that, regardless of the purpose behind a space, any space you enter should conform to your ideas, and that the pre-existing members of that space should give your singular opinion weight equal to that their group as a whole.

That’s one of the best short definitions of privilege I’ve ever seen. I’m going to post a link to this article on my blog; I have something on the order of three readers, but it’s still something worth bringing up. Unless, of course, you’d prefer me to link to the home page only and not direct-link the article.

I have a small issue with this part.

I understand your concern, and my quoting of that part should definitely not be taken as a blanket endorsement from me to silence the voices of gay men in slash communities. It’s a fine line because of the dynamics at work, and I can see both ends of it. Personally I think that it should be handled on a case-by-case basis, looking at both kinds of privilege and how they are being used in regards to the specific situation.

If you want to join in metadiscussions about slash, this is also possible - so long as you do so as a slash fan, and not as a gay man arguing that you know how gay men experience the world, and this or that in a slash story isn’t it. Because then you are not trying to join in metadiscussions as just another slash fan: you are trying to distort metadiscussions about slash with male privilege.

I have a small issue with this part. While a gay man posting like this might be trying to assert male privilege, it might also be a gay person not wanting to see gay sex used for the entertainment of hets (as slash is often, rightly or not, perceived) - not asserting one privilege, but challenging another.

Why publish an article aimed at men in a magazine for women?

*cough*

The article was aimed at game designers. Not men. Read it again.

I think, though, that the fact that you assume that because it was directed toward game designers means it must be directed at men says a great deal about the amount of privilege you carry.