I have absolutely no problem with that. In fact, I have heard plenty of similar statements from various feminists, generally along the line of “you men think this is all about YOU. Well it’s not all about you. It just isn’t! Get over it!”

Of course, I find that statement intellectually fallacious: In fact, it IS about men to SOME extent at least - although I’m sure it is about other things as well. Point taken.

But as for “not being included” - fine! I will remember not to ask to be included - not that I need much reminding on that score.

But I can assure you that what the counter-feminist center undertakes in terms of future projects will in no way depend upon “inclusion” within feminist culture or feminist discourse, nor upon mirror-equivalent mimicry of same.

So, write me down as one who does not request inclusion.

Cheers!

seriously, thank you for the clarification for my own thinking. this is a really great post and it totally makes sense.

But, yeah, if you don’t mind me using you as a case in point, the little conversation you and I have had has been all positive. I obviously can’t speak for where you stand on feminists, feminism, and the way that our two belief systems interact, but it’s clear that you aren’t anything like the trolls that frequent some feminist sites and yet you are just as clearly an MRA. Ergo, if you exist others like you most likely also exist and I, for one, don’t want to be the type of person who shuts down a potentially useful dialog because I can’t/don’t want to change my image of your group.

I think I am the MRA that you’re refering to. I have actually made a few comments here and there. My last post was on the Gender inclusive gaming thread.

One of the things that drove me crazy about the few MRA’s I had contact with is how they stubbornly stuck to their idea of what feminists are, even in the face of several examples like myself who, you know, weren’t like that at all. Because of that, I don’t want to make the same mistake with them.

I do think that the lack of acknowledgment of an overall power structure that privileges some groups over others does contribute to the abundance of assholes who think it’s good to troll feminist sites, fetishize non-American women, and call women they don’t like “Ameri-skanks”. But I also think that there are probably some men who have been hurt by things such as compulsory gender roles who have found MRA groups appealing because they purport to be fighting against the results of certain compulsory gender roles (although they obviously frame the issue differently).

I definitely have a zero-tolerance policy for MRA trolls. But I also haven’t gotten many (if any) of them here. I know that at least one MRA occasionally reads this blog, but the only time he commented was to contribute his opinion when I was changing my blockquote style and asked for advice. That, at least, says that he is considerate enough to not come onto my space with privilege guns blazing and demand that he be heard. I’m inclined to hope that he might even think about what I say and realize that feminists aren’t the demons we’re so often made out to be.

Personally, while I completely understand how you feel (and suspect that you’ve run into more than your fair share of the troll-types), I’m also not comfortable with having straight up MRA bashing on this site. Critiquing the movement’s methodology, and even railing against the specific troll-types, is fine, but please avoid sweeping generalizations about all people who ID as MRA in the future.

Carve that on a rock and praise jesus.

If the women’s rights movement was about obtaining equality, then what exactly is the men’s right movement by default except taking away rights from women? What “rights” are they missing? The right to control women’s reproductive choices? The right to fuck without responsibility? The right to automatically control any children they may have? Never mind that a man’s part of childbirth takes 5 minutes but a woman’s is 9 months, let’s not forget to worship the almighty penis.

Seriously, look at any mra website which gets into specifics. Notice how most of them don’t list what they want. Why? Cause they don’t want to make their misogny obvious? So what do most of the mra sites consist of? Oh, crap about everything wrong in the entire world is women’s fault, crap about how laws should be strengthened to promote the family. What does that mean exactly, besides making it harder for a woman to divorce a jerk?

God knows I’m not about to say that men are without issues, but why on earth is it mommy’s responsibility to kiss all their boo-boos better?

I would feel better about the mra’s if they were intellectually honest about the imbalance of equality women are still dealing with, and the residual problems caused by same. But they refuse to acknowledge this. Instead they like to pretend that we are all perfectly equal and always have been, and what on earth is up with those screeching feminists anyway?

Mra’s remind me of spoiled little boys, mad that their toys were taken away.

Disclaimer: real men are wonderful and I have no problem with them. Oh, and apparently I’m A Very Bad Person because I Point Out Things mra’s Don’t Like to Hear.

I will point out that there are some complexities involved in men calling bullshit on other men (just as there are complexities involved in women calling out men, and in women calling out other women, etc.); that is, men need to more often discuss ways of doing this that aren’t reinforcing traditional gender roles. For instance, if I had stood up at the gathering you’re talking about and told the guy who claimed reverse-sexism to sit down and shut the f*ck up, that’s a bullying tactic that men sometimes use on other men to–in part–reinforce traditional gender roles through bullying. (Even more complex are the times when bullying is sort of the last resort, and must also considered useful.)

To be clear, I’m on board with everything you’ve said; I think there are other conversations men (and women) need to have around this stuff, however, in order for this sort of speaking up to be the most effective and the least harmful.

(On a more personal note, one of my woman friends has asked me to *not* speak up in this way when I’m around her, because it makes her feel like she can’t stand up for herself, among other reasons. Which is just one more layer of complexity that men (and women) need to address.)