I wonder if there are that many feminists (who believe that this issue is a problem) currently playing WoW…

There actually seem to be a halfway decent number of “Feminist Gamer” type blogs. I dunno how big their readership is, though. Minus the trolls, of course. ^_^ Sadly enough, despite being a feminist gamer, I don’t really frequent those blogs.

But no, I don’t think there are enough feminist gamers currently playing WoW to really scare Blizzard. Plus, my threat wouldn’t have a lot of weight behind it. I won’t quit playing until the sig. other goes on deployment, and I’ll pick it right back up when he gets back.

I wonder if we could frame the argument in terms of “save the middle school boys from teh boobies” and recruit the religious right to help us! >.> Oh wait, nvm. That idea is full of fail. ^_^

You know, I was thinking, even if we couldn’t stage a massive unsubscription from feminist gamers, perhaps we could still engage a mass-complaint? I dunno… Probably still wouldn’t work.

It would have to be pretty massive; on the scale of what happened when Blizzard allowed its policies to be interpreted as advertising GLBT-friendly guilds qualified as sexual orientation related harassment. Even though Blizzard claimed later that it was one GM mistakenly interpreting things, given their slow response time I’m sure they would have let the “mistaken interpretation” slide if it hadn’t been for the mass-complaint (read: big enough to make a sizable dent in their profit-margin).

I wonder if there are that many feminists (who believe that this issue is a problem) currently playing WoW…

That being said, I HAVE seen a lot in the way of homophobia. In my guild last summer, I actually had an effing MACRO, comprised of two buttons, for asking guildies not to use “gay” inappropriately (one button to make the request, then if they ask why, a second button with the explanation). Drove me batty.

Unfortunately, I agree that ending my subscription would really not have the desired effect. Also, WoW is one of the few ways I can currently spend quality time with my significant other (we’re rocking a 1500mile, 24hr drive separation at the moment. Ugh).

So, Word! To those of you have thrown up your hands in frustration. And thanks to anyone who takes the time and effort to try to stop awful comments when they happen.

You know, I was thinking, even if we couldn’t stage a massive unsubscription from feminist gamers, perhaps we could still engage a mass-complaint? I dunno… Probably still wouldn’t work. Sad face.

In my post, Goodbye WoW, hello disappointment, I described how after a while putting up with the sexist comments ruined the game for me. It wasn’t fun to log in and deal with harassment, both of myself and of the women (or female avatars) around me. I game to get away from stress, including the oppression of a misogynistic culture, and when my already too high blood pressure rises every time I log in, what’s the reason to stay? Why put myself through torture in an attempt to wring out that last bit of fun from a game? If I’m going to be angry, I’d rather do something constructive about it like blog. If I’m gaming, I want to be having fun.

The first few years of my WoW experience were in a woman run/dominated guild where things like that just weren’t tolerated. You dropped a sexist, misogynist comment, you got a warning first, second time you were given the boot. Unfortunately, we didn’t last and I landed in another guild where I’m one of few women… for a long time I considered them my friends, but to be honest the atmosphere has gotten intolerable lately. I have gotten in arguments with a few people for their comments, but it really just got to the point where it made me cringe to even log on. I’ve pulled a few characters out to get away from the atmosphere, but there are guild members that just REFUSE to understand why I would prefer to have a safe space where I don’t have to hear that shit, if only from guild members at least. As far as they’re concerned, I need to get a thicker skin. I’ve given much the same argument as I quoted of yours, and I feel the same way. Doesn’t change the fact that I hear “rape” dropped in a BG at least once a day, but at least I’m not hearing that shit, along with sexually violent jokes and women being reduced to meat from “friends”.

I completely agree that the general atmosphere and the players can be really misogynist, and I am on an RP server hordeside. Both server and faction type are generally connoted as having more “mature” players. Can’t imagine what it would be like on other servers. I used to be a pretty obsessive reader of my realm’s forums as well, but it got to the point where I couldn’t read one thread without someone dropping some misogynist comment. Had to give those up for my sanity.

And thank the goddess for tabards…. it has always annoyed the ever living hell out of me that an armor piece on a guy avatar will cover him completely but will be strategically reduced to nothing on my avatars.

Apologies for commenting on such an old post, it’s just REALLY nice to hear this coming from someone else. I’ve gotten the “you’re the only woman who cares, why should people cater just to you” argument, I can’t count how many times I’ve had the “when you say p***y you are degrading women” only to get “I don’t think about it that way, so clearly it’s not” every single time, and hell I have even had someone argue some angle of “eliminating sexist language would make things boring.” WTF??? Argh… my blood is boiling again.

I think we should get serious and get a petition going or something. It is incredibly inappropriate and offensive, and guess what - I’m male, as well. This masturbatory teenage world Blizzard has created is extremely harmful.

gaming companys are less concerned that by utilizing female figures as in-game sexual objects they will dissuade female gamers from buying their product; the big concern is that if they do *not* include stereotyped depictions of women as sex toys and eye candy, they will lose male consumers.

Oh, completely. And both ideas are an issue. If you’re interested on my thoughts on that end, I’d suggest reading my “Girls & Game Ads” series.

then they’re doing the “right” thing for themselves and their investors, that is, they’re taking what appears to be the quickest and shortest route to big profits.

But that’s assuming that their premise is true; that it’s more important to exclude women in order to “keep” or “entice” their target audience of teenage boys controlled by their hormones, than it is to take some small steps towards, at the very least, not discouraging women from playing, because even a toning down of the objectification of women would lead to a mass exodous of the boys since all they are gaming for is the T&A.

I, personally, think that’s a false premise. I think by assuming the worst of their playership (sex = only reason to play game), and doing their damnest to further that ideal/culture, that they’re actually cutting into profits that could be made off of the people who are turned off by the misogynistic, immature atmosphere. Some players will play despite it because they like the game dynamics so much, but I would argue that more players would play despite women not being hypsersexualized and reduced to objects aimed at titilating some mythical teenage boy controlled by his hormones.

In the end, the game company *does* *not* *care* if you like the game or enjoy playing it. In fact, with the subscription model, you have a game that the company does *not* want you to play; rather, they want only that you *subscribe* (like a gym membership you never use).

That is very true. Which is why I cancelled my subscription and never looked back. Despite the elements of the game I actually enjoyed. Not that Blizzard cares one whit about losing one subscriber. I don’t think it would really care if it lost a thousand. I only wish there was enough drive in the feminist gaming community to stage a mass protest that showed Blizzard that they stood to lose a significant chunk of their profits if they keep doing what they’re doing. But that’s just a pipe dream. *sigh*

I feel it’s important to recognize that (IMHO, qualifier, qualifier) gaming companys are less concerned that by utilizing female figures as in-game sexual objects they will dissuade female gamers from buying their product; the big concern is that if they do *not* include stereotyped depictions of women as sex toys and eye candy, they will lose male consumers.

And personally, if I take an objective standpoint and think of game companies as what they are–producers of product, desirous of kapital accumulation, and beholden to profit-minded investors–then they’re doing the “right” thing for themselves and their investors, that is, they’re taking what appears to be the quickest and shortest route to big profits.

On Astarte’s site, her general apathy towards humankind may inform her rationale for staying in the game, but it does nothing to solve the problem. In the end, the game company *does* *not* *care* if you like the game or enjoy playing it. In fact, with the subscription model, you have a game that the company does *not* want you to play; rather, they want only that you *subscribe* (like a gym membership you never use). Her emotional detachment from the vast community of other gamers she’s nominally engaging with is more of a sad statement on generalized detachment of modern persons from larger society than an admirable reason for staying in the game.

I mean, nihilism as a motivator for gameplaying, what an irony.

Perhaps there is a bigger difference between PvP and RP servers than Alliance and Horde–though since you’ve also played on an RP server, that in and of itself clearly doesn’t explain it. It’s entirely possible that it all occurs on horde-Feathermoon just as you say it did on your servers, and I’m simply oblivious!

I think it was a little bit of bad luck on my end, and a lot bit of the general population of WoW being privileged heterosexual males (I’d add “young” to that, but most of the shit talking in my guild was made by people my age and older). And, I mean, I am trained to see that. An argument between two people on Barrens’ chat where one party is saying things like “rape,” or making jokes about domestic violence, is probably going to catch my eye. It is less likely to catch yours, because that kind of language is a mostly unquestioned part of your verbal landscape (not to say that you use it yourself, because I don’t know either way, but rather that those around you who you count as friends most likely do).

Where I say “if anyone asks,” I should say “if certain people ask.” If Blizzard or some third party conducted a poll, I’d provide the real reason. If my… friends from college ask, I’ll give the other reason (which is actually also true as well, albeit less important.)

I’d first like to say that I recognize your right to pick and choose your battles with your friends. If you don’t feel comfortable getting into that kind of discussion with them, then I’m not going to stand here saying you should. Only you have the power to decide what to do, and not do, in your life.

At the same time, regardless of your decision, not saying something to someone is still being complicit in the behaviour. I address it in my How to be a real nice guy post:

Call Others of Your Group on their Crap

Privilege is perpetuated in part by the silence of people when one of their own group does something questionable. This can be an inappropriate joke, or someone admitting that they committed a crime against a minority (eg. rape), etc. We’re conditioned to not say anything, especially if we’ll be the lone voice of dissent among a peer group, but when you tell the offender that hir behaviour is not cool, you may be pleasantly surprised by the group’s response. Or you may be ridiculed. I’ve had both happen to me, and with certain groups (like my family), I try to pick and choose my battles. With others (like most of my friends), I’ll risk losing them rather than keeping friends with questionable values. It won’t always work, and you have to find your own balance, but just saying something, or even backing up another dissenter, can go a long way to improving a situation.

Taking the heat off of you and putting it onto me, I have - even in recent history - bitten my tongue, or not elaborated to the full extent on, issues with people. Sometimes it was to maintain whatever dregs of a relationship with someone (like my eldest sister, who has all but written me off as a “man-hating, hairy-legged feminist”) or simply because I didn’t want to go through the hassle of getting into it and explaining things. We gotta do what we gotta do. But, at the same time, I know that my silence wasn’t the 100% right thing to do. Would speaking up have made a difference to those particular people? Probably not. But it might have made a difference to someone listening, or just to me- for knowing that I didn’t just sit down and say nothing when an injustice was committed.

And I don’t mean to pick on you. This is something we all struggle with, but it’s also something I feel strongly about. Too often because of issues - whether it be our own self-confidence, or societal pressures, or family/friend pressures, or what-have-you - we are silent on issues that need to be talked about. It may just be reducing one’s genderbending experience to one element - that of a hot piece of ass - but from there it becomes one small step to saying nothing when one of your friends reduces a real woman to nothing more than a hot piece of ass, and then a small step to saying nothing when a friend treats women like nothing more than hot pieces of ass, and from there it can go on to remaining silent while your friend cheats on his girlfriend, abuses (emotionally and/or physically) her, and maybe even rapes her, or some other girl. Though I’m not a fan of the word, silence can often be a slippery slope. Again, you gotta do what you think is right with your life, but all I’m asking for is for you to be aware of the potential ramifications of staying silent on issues dealing with oppression.

Since this has turned into a novel, I’m going to post it, take a break, then come back later to take up the part of the convo on Japan.

And “fr from hating,” as I wrote, should read “far from hating.”