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Drawn by the Carnival of Feminists, I visited midlife mama’s article, Second Wave Feminism, Beauvoir, and me, and got into a small conversation about second-wave and third-wave feminism. In her reply, Libby discusses her experiences with the “women are equal already” sentiment that many young people (and some older ones too) hold. I, in my typical fashion, went off on a rant about how much I hate that. And, again in my typical fashion, I want to take the opportunity to elaborate on my point. Disclaimer: This post is Western-centric, with a focus on America/Canada, because that’s where most of my practical experience comes from.
Warning: The following post is a list that links to many examples of why the idea that we Westerners live in a genderblind society, meaning that we have achieved total equality, is a myth. If you are offended by the idea that women may not be content for scraps now that we’ve got the vote, then this is not the list for you. If you are offended by a list about equality that focuses on women, don’t complain about it here. There are many places to discuss men’s issues, this thread is not one of them. This is not a detailed rebuttal or in-depth discussion on the issues presented, although if you take the time to follow the links you may find some those. This is a link list and is aimed at being a launching pad, not the end path, so if you decide to treat it as such then it is your loss, not the list’s fault. And if you are a man who reads this list and thinks that women should stop “whining” about the “small shit” then you are just proving the point that this list is trying to make.
So, without further ado, I present you with some food for thought on equality.
We Can’t Be Equal While:
-
Gender Roles
- Men are the default and women are the Other (and therefore lesser).
- Being called “girly” or a “sissy” or “pussy” are some of the worst insults you can give a man.
- When a woman shows confidence in herself, she is said to “have balls”, or conversely she is a “man-eater”, “ball-buster”, or a “bitch” because she was “too” assertive.
- Men are beat up, ridiculed, or made fun of for being “effeminate” and women are beat up, ridiculed, or made fun of for being “masculine”.
- Many people get angry when a woman questions the intentions behind a “chivalrous” act from a man.
- There are men who refuse “chivalrous” acts from a woman, such as refusing to walk through a door that a woman holds open for them, while believing that it is rude for a woman to exercise the same right to refuse.
- Women can’t express anger without the very real fear of being accused of “hysterics” or being “shrill”.
- Women get scolded for “un-ladylike” behaviour: using coarse language, talking frankly about sex or other “impolite” topics, confidently voicing one’s dissenting opinion, etc.
- People continue to believe and perpetuate gender essentialism based on bad science or using actual studies to “prove” the innateness of gender roles when the study itself supports no such thing.
- For different-sex couples, women are expected to take their husband’s name, or at the very least hyphenate, but many men still balk at the idea of even considering adopting their wife’s name. If a woman decides to keep her name, both partners are interrogated and shamed by friends and family.
- For same-sex couples, people think it is okay to ask “who’s the woman/man of the couple?”
- Women are seen as the “gatekeepers” to morality/sexuality, charged with the duty of fending off the advances of men. If they fail then they were “asking for” it and/or are “damaged goods”. Their clothing/actions will always be questioned to see if they were “leading on” the man at all.
- Men are seen as “beasts” who are unable to control their “raging hormones” - which absolves them of guilt for “improper” sex (anything from date rape to sex outside of marriage) but also paints them as uncivilized brutes.
- Women are “sluts”, men are “players”.
- Women’s worth goes down according to how many sexual partners people think she has had.
- Men’s worth goes up according to how many sexual partners people think he has had.
- We live in a rape culture where many people continue to blame the victims of rape and domestic violence.
- We buy into the myth that all men (even minors) are, at all times, willing to fuck a “gorgeous” woman and any man who would pass up sex with a remotely attractive woman is deserving of ridicule.
- Wives/mothers are still expected to do most of the home/childcare, even if they have a job outside the home.
- Fathers/husbands are seen as bumbling dolts who are mentally incapable of cooking, cleaning, taking care of the children, or any other traditionally feminine task.
- There are significantly more stay-at-home moms than there are dads.
- Men are expected to pay on a date, and some men expect women to put out for this “service”.
- Men continue to be a clear majority in the government, prominent positions in businesses, and other public places of power.
- There have been so few female leaders in most countries. For instance, in the Group of Eight:
- America has never had a female president.
- Canada’s first, and only, female prime minister was Kim Campell [1993].
- Britain’s first, and only, female prime minister was Margaret Thatcher [1979-1990].
- France’s first, and only, female prime minister was Edith Cresson [1991-1992].
- Italy has never had a female prime minister.
- Japan has never had a female prime minister.
- Russia has never had a female president.
- Germany’s first, and only, female Chancellor is Angela Merkel [2005].
- Pakistan, which is held up by many Americans as a “backward” country regarding women’s rights, elected a female prime minister, Benazir Bhutto, twice while Americans were still debating whether or not America was “ready” for a female president (here are some other female leaders who have been elected while America has been dragging its feet).
- There are still areas in our so-called “equal” societies where sex discrimination, sexual harassment and the glass ceiling are alive and kicking.
- It’s considered “big news” when articles tell mothers who work outside the home that they “can’t have it all”, but not so much when articles call for work reforms and male responsibility.
- Women in the sex trade, even those who have chosen the life, are treated as sub-human on a regular basis.
- It is not seen as sex discrimination to include harmful (and expensive!) items such as makeup and high heels in the requirements for a woman’s dress code while having no such constraints on the men’s dress code.
- Women are still discouraged from entering the sciences by social stereotypes, lack of job availability, and the continuing belief that women just aren’t smart enough.
- It is considered appropriate to attack a female public figure because of her appearance and fashion sense.
- One of the first ways to discredit women who speak up in public forums is to threaten sexual violence.
- Women are disproportionately affected by fat discrimination in the workforce and other places.
- Men’s bodies belong to no one but themselves; women’s uteri are seen as the property of men, the government, and even strangers.
- Women’s place as full-fledged legal and social adults is not assured.
- Women are seen first and foremost by their physical attributes and secondly by their relevant qualities.
- The double-standard of beauty is camouflaged under myths of empowerment and liberation.
- Women feel the need to undergo a potentially dangerous operation on their healthy vaginas in order to please their husbands/boyfriends by striving towards an unrealistic beauty standard set by mainstream porn.
- It is seen as appropriate for stranger and friend alike to give unsolicited comments on a woman’s appearance: her weight, fashion, leg/armpit hair, etc.
- Eating disorders, caused primarily by our society’s unhealthy obsession with fat, are still rampant among women (significantly more than among men).
- There are contests like “Pimp My Ride”.
Relationships, Sex, and Sexuality
The Public Sphere
Appearance, Bodily Sovereignty, and Personhood
And many, many other reasons.
Last Updated: February 9, 2008.
November 23rd, 2005 at 3:13 pm
‘Women can’t express anger without the very real fear of being accused of “hysterics†or being “shrillâ€.’
Oh i had this so recently when a co-worker i’m mine accused me of being overly opinionated, when i pointed out the others were opinionated like a mutal friend, he said yes but he doesn’t take it so personally. Mind you the friend is almost a male version of me.
I like your list, I might add to my blog, do you mind?
November 23rd, 2005 at 3:16 pm
Go ahead and add it ^_^ Just give me credit (either by name, link, or both). It literally took me the entire afternoon to write the list ._.
November 24th, 2005 at 2:38 am
Of course i would like, i wouldn’ dare break any of the cardinal sins of bloggin eiquette. Hehe
November 24th, 2005 at 2:39 am
that is supposed to be blogging etiquette
me bad!
November 25th, 2005 at 7:41 am
Great list, and great rant in the other one as well. Glad to see this conversation going on!
December 1st, 2005 at 6:15 am
[…] I found an extensive list of instances which indicate that women have not achieved equality in western society. I decided I wanted to save a reference to this, and then decided to share it with my fellow pirates. Thanks to ampersand for the pointer to Official Shrub where the list originated. […]
December 12th, 2005 at 3:33 pm
OK, so women have these items as proof of not achieving equality. But I gather that the underlying assumption is that men don’t have a list of their own?
But we do.
So, aren’t we equal in that we can both throw up a list of grievances like this one? Or, are we to now take the analysis to the level of “yeah, but my list is worse than your list”?
Life is tough, and it’s also what you make it.
Do you know any women who are happy? If so, why are they happy? Is it because they might not write the same list as you did? Different ways of looking at life/society, etc? Different priorities? Different perspectives, differences in sorting of issues into the piles of “this is a problem which needs fixing” and “this is a problem which does not need fixing”?
(And, of course, I could ask the same about men…)
December 12th, 2005 at 4:45 pm
Your post qualifies as thread hijacking and dismissal of my point. I’m letting you off the hook because 1) the discussion rules hadn’t been posted yet, and 2) you were mostly polite and therefore I’m inclined to be more lenient. However, I advise you to read the rules now they’re up and abide by them in the future. This is your one, and only warning.
I urge you to read my post again. While the focus is on women, as we are the group that experiences institutionalized oppression in greater quantity than men, the patriarchy thrives on controlling people’s choices and that does affect men as well.
In particular, these items acknowledge the chains placed on men:
It acknowledges violence against men who do not fit into appropriate gender roles as a part of the tools that are used to keep the status quo. I would hardly call that helpful to either men, who live in fear if they are not “appropriately” masculine, or women, who are brought down to a level below men because it is their supposed innate qualities that are seen as being beneath men to possess.
Men are harmed by this one, too, because if they want to take their wife’s last name (think it sounds better than theirs, don’t have close ties to their families, etc), then they have to face the very real possibility of being shamed and/or interrogated by friends, family, and even strangers on the matter.
This does not just affect queer women, but queer men as well. Also, when seen in context of the “effeminite” being seen as lesser, men who enjoy having their asses penetrated (and heterosxual men who enjoy having their female SOs use a dildo on them fit in this one, too) are constantly ridiculed and shamed.
The harm to men is explained in the last part of the sentence.
Need I go on? Maybe if people like you would stop whining about how people never think about the poor men, then perhaps you would be able to see that equality for women is also a step towards true equality for men, too.
If you think that it’s okay for people to get hurt because some other people aren’t hurt by the lack of choice, then you and I have nothing to discuss.
December 13th, 2005 at 10:06 am
Great list and really great embedded links for examples - glad you posted a link to this page from the discussion on Feministe. You pretty much single-handedly answered the question of WHY we need the feminist movement and all its related movements. Thanks for the work.
September 15th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
I work in what other people perceive as a man’s profession. To me it makes perfect sense for both sexes to enjoy my profession.
I have been routinuely told to leave my profession and wouldn’t I be happier staying at home with kids (no I would not). Now I am disabled and will be “forced” to take care of the kids, because my disability and sex makes me the weaker of the two financial earners.
My husband and I have equivalent experience in the same career, but I make 75% what he makes. I am regularly told that I can’t get raises or promotions due to being disabled. Every year I watch the income disparity grow.
I could change jobs for even LESS pay if I really looked hard for one that would hire a disabled woman.
I get constant messages from friends, family, and co-workers on how much easier it would be to just give up and “work from home”.
I am bitter, but frankly I deserve to be angry about all this.
September 20th, 2006 at 4:00 pm
None of your links work.
They all say “URL NOT FOUND”
.___.
Good list, though! The one that gets me the most is that I can’t get mad without guys asking/saying “ARE YOU ON YOUR PERIOD?” NO! I am NOT on my period! You’re just an asshole! D
September 21st, 2006 at 2:47 pm
Steph: It appears to be mostly the Feministing threads. When I have a spare moment, I’ll see if I can find their new locations. Sorry about that!
September 22nd, 2006 at 1:06 am
I updated the links that I could and took out some of the ones I couldn’t. When my head stops hurting I’ll see about replacing the links that I couldn’t update.
September 22nd, 2006 at 4:34 am
Really great job! I’m definitely going to link to this!
There’s a typo in #33 that you might want to fix (once you’ve had a rest): “socia adults.”
Oh, and here’s a possible link to go with #13. (But I won’t mind if you don’t use it.)
September 22nd, 2006 at 4:38 am
Thanks, Amp! Darn typo, it happened because I had to take a Pandagon link out (finding their old articles that changed locations after a move is simply too hard for me to want to do). And if you know of any other good posts on your site to go with the list, please tell me (it saves me from having to do the footwork later on, hah!)
November 27th, 2006 at 7:57 pm
Can I ask a question? I’m concerned about (9). I’ll admit to a certain amount of skepticism about the issue. That is, my first instinct is to ask “What’s the big deal?” As a man, I have simply not thought about this particular issue very much. However, I have a daughter, and I have been looking into such things more of late.
My question has to do with the perceived insult, oppression, degradation, or whatever you would call it. From the other discussions you have linked to on this issue, it is clear that there is good research indicating that the tradition “female takes the males name” is alive and well. But I’m unclear as to the modern day negatives that this trend implies. I absolutely understand that questioning any and all traditions which grew out of inappropriate attitudes is a good thing. But most of the discussions seem to take for granted that a modern woman taking her husband’s name is some sort of acquiescence not only to that tradition, but possibly to those old attitudes.
I don’t want to question anyone’s experience. I noticed in your rules that leaning on stereotypes. I appreciate that attitude very much. I suppose what I’m asking is whether or not the impression that taking a partner’s name when marrying is a negative is itself a stereotypical (if not very old) attitude.
Is there good research out there which indicates that significant percentages of women feel put upon when they take their husband’s name?
November 28th, 2006 at 3:42 am
Gary: I think part of it is that the attitudes that are being talked about aren’t as outdated as we’d like to think. When women talk about the decision to change their name or not, it’s almost always about whether to keep it or to change it. The idea that the man could change his name rarely occurs to either of them.
In a neutral environment, I don’t think that anyone would argue that there’s any issue with a woman taking her husband’s name. But, then, I don’t think it would be so outlandish for a man to take his wife’s name. Or for the couple to create a new name. Or for them both to keep theirs.
In our current environment, I don’t think it’s appropriate to attack a woman if she chooses to take that path. Nor do I think we can know the full reasons for that choice, although it’s important to realize that it is much, much easier to go with the flow (which, in this case, is the tradition) than it is to balk it.
I’m pretty sure there’s reliable data on the number of women who take their husband’s names, hypenate, or do something else. But when it comes to things like “feel[ing] put upon” anecdotal evidence, and collections of anecdotal evidence, are probably the best one can get. Google is probably a good place to start for a variety of opinions; put in various combinations for marriage, name changing, choice, and feminism.
I would, however, caution about using women who “feel put upon” as the yardstick. Most who fit into that category will be the ones who choose not to do so, or at least to hyphenate.
And no wonder; who wants to feel bad about something they decided? Even if they faced pressure above the simple assumption that a woman will either change her name or do the “feminist” thing and keep hers, it’s entirely possible that they would downplay the pressure they felt and emphasize that it was their choice.
Anyway, this is obviously a complicated issue, as well as a very personal one. I wish you and your family the best.
November 28th, 2006 at 3:49 am
gary,
For me at least, it’s not so much about the notion that taking a male partner’s name is inherently negative. That you refer to it as “taking a partner’s name” in your second-to-last paragraph obscures the direction of the tradition in a way that I find a little troubling, to be honest. Because part of the point is that if it’s really so removed from the old traditions, why are men often so defensive about it being suggested that they take their wife’s name?
It’s also about the fact that a woman is not really free to choose not to take her husband’s name without (often both of them) being met with a considerable number of requests for justification.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:40 pm
# Many people get angry when a woman questions the intentions behind a “chivalrous†act from a man.
I agree that somebody should never get angry from questioning, but it is really, really, really annoying when you get called misoginistic when you are being polite.
I would open a door for someone regardless of sex. Its common politeness. Regardless of the original ideas behind the tradition the context of my action is not some kind of sexist mind set, so I dont especialy like to have the worst assumed of me.
December 12th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
“If a woman decides to keep her name, both partners are interrogated and shamed by friends and family.”
Are you talking generally or factually here?
When I got married my husband left the choice of whether or not I changed my name to his completely up to me. He really didn’t care either way. So I kept my name (because I like it) and I also use his name professionally (because I like it). I use both. There was no naming or shaming by any of my family (or his for that matter) at all. My boss - who’s from a traditional Italian background uses her own name, but has a hypenated last name.
Many of my girlfriends simply could not wait to take their husband’s names. So much so, that some women even started using their husband’s names before they actually got married. And, as another example, friends of ours who married recently chose a completely new name,.
From what I personally see in Canada and in the UK, changing your name when you get married isn’t a big deal any more.
When men open doors for me, or let me go first into the elevator which they often, do I like it. I think it is polite - much more so than letting the door shut in my face. I smile and always say thanks. And I also hold the door open for men and women alike.
I am fortunate to work in a very large organization where respect for diversity including gender is very much encouraged - and if people entertain thoughts that they are “more equal” than their women counterparts, they are advised to leave those thoughts at the door before they come to work. They also won’t get very far in the company. And by the way, women make up a good proportion of the top execs at this company.
Lastly, it is sad, but many of these inequalites are at the very least perpetrated by women themsleves. A woman who had decided not to have children and who is childfree (such as myself) is derided and scorned by women, and is counted less than equal to the venerated mothers of the world. In fact she is termed to be “abnormal” for not wanting kids. And if she dares pursues a career while she has young children, she is criticised by other women as a bad mother who should be at home tending to children and husband.
Not saying that all the work is done, it isn’t. But at least I can present a different reality.
December 13th, 2006 at 1:42 pm
Shackleton: I wouldn’t blame you for getting irritated when someone makes an incorrect assumption about you. However, please note that the women who get angry at you have probably faced a long line of men who do the same actions and actually are misogynist. It’s not fair that you get misjudged, of course. But I also think it would be unfair to put the responsibility on women (and all non-privileged groups) to always give men (and all privileged individuals) the benefit of the doubt, when their previous experiences may have given them very good reason not to.
Britgirl: You are right when you say:
There certainly are areas where progress has been made, and it’s important that we share our positive stories alongside the bad. Rather than invalidating our complaints, this kind of reminder gives us reason to be optimistic.
However, the inequalities that you say are “perpetrated by women themselves” still originate from, and are given power by, the greater forces of (sexist) society, and are not just things that women do to each other for no reason. Women who attack each other for their choices are often motivated by the ways in which they have had their choices criticized or suppressed. This doesn’t make it right, of course, but it does mean that we ought to be aware of the wider patriarchal sources of these forms of oppression. If we get caught up in criticizing women, we lose sight of the ways in which patriarchy benefits from - and also generates - these constraints on women.
December 13th, 2006 at 8:24 pm
“However, the inequalities that you say are “perpetrated by women themselves†still originate from, and are given power by, the greater forces of (sexist) society, and are not just things that women do to each other for no reason. Women who attack each other for their choices are often motivated by the ways in which they have had their choices criticized or suppressed.”
I can only half buy that argument.I would agree that in some cases it’s very true. But I don’t buy that the criticism and scorn heaped on women who for example, choose not to reproduce can be blamed on the patriarchy critizing or repressing their choices. In many cases, quite the reverse. I use this example because of the times without number I, (in common with other childfree women) find we have had to defend our choices in life to smug women who have freely chosen the path they wanted (motherhood) and freely feel they have the right to question and judge my path and decision. That they don’t do it for no reason is true. They do it because they believe my life choice doesn’t validate theirs, and they fully believe theirs is superior to mine.
Whatever their “reason”, women who criticise childfree women (again experienced) need to take responsibility for their own choices and actions, even if they find they don’t like them in the end and simply respect the choices of others instead of attacking them. Then maybe we could see where we have more in common than difference and contine the work to move forward.
December 14th, 2006 at 12:43 am
Britgirl: I guess the thing is to me, is that ultimately it *is* about patriarchy. It’s that patriarchy presents a narrow set of options (rather than choices) with regard to if/when/how one has and raises children. Being perfectly honest, whether the options are rewarded or punished by patriarchy isn’t actually that relevant. What we need to be aware of is that patriarchy sets up these options as oppositional.
As you said in your first comment, just as there are women criticizing other women for not having children, there are women criticizing other women for not being stay-at-home moms, or for *being* stay-at-home moms. And this is one of the really tricky things about patriarchy. It’s not (just) about men oppressing women, it’s about about the forces of (sexist) society that greatly benefit from women attacking each other. It’s also about other *isms intersecting, too. In the whole stay-at-home v. working mother thing, for example, has a lot of classist baggage linked into it.
That said, yeah, some people are just going to be asshats. I’ve known some childfree people who can be just as awful to people with children as some people with children can be to us. But at a certain point, blaming women for perpetuating patriarchy only gets us so far; not least of which because it’s so often used as some kind of evidence by anti-feminists that there’s no patriarchy because women do it too.
December 14th, 2006 at 10:04 pm
“Lastly, it is sad, but many of these inequalites are at the very least perpetrated by women themsleves.”
I agree, absolutely. I get a lot of grief from my mom because I don’t ever want to get married, because I don’t shave my legs, because I don’t wear makeup, because I don’t want to have biological children, etc., etc., etc. Also, if I’m irritated with her and it’s anywhere within a week before my period, she automatically assumes I’m PMS-ing. Just today, she TOLD me I was PMS-ing because I wasn’t responding when she was chatting to me in the car. If anything, I’d say I experience more sexism from other women than from men (not to say that I’m not ever on the recieving end of sexist comments from men).
December 16th, 2006 at 11:19 pm
“What we need to be aware of is that patriarchy sets up these options as oppositional.”
I won’t argue about whether or not the patriarchy exists. What I do have a problem with, though, is the blaming of the patriarchy (or any outside force for that matter) for what are women’s own actions and choices. Not saying that society does not have some blame. But society is made up of people and people buy into what they want to. So perhaps we are saying the same thing in a way.
Options are not necessarily a bad thing. Having children is an option/choice. Not having them is also an option that is open to women, but a choice they exercise. So is getting married. We have a choice. If they are set up as oppositional as you say, my argument is that many women seem to be more interested in keeping the status quo, which ultimately means alienating other women. How women regard others who choose differently may be influenced by their experience, but ultimately how they choose to think about and treat others is theirs and theirs alone.
It comes down to mutual respect.
To me blaming everything on patriarchy confers on women almost a “victim” status that’s disturbing and from where I stand, a bit of a cop-out. I think women have the power to achieve whatever they want to - depending on the choices they make for themselves. Denigrating and competing with other women, simply because they are women I feel wastes that power and antagonizes those who could be allies. Men also compete as we know. But somehow they manage to remain buddies and help each other along.
I find at work that generally I rarely feel I have to watch my back at work when it comes to my male bosses. Some might say it’s because they don’t see me as a threat.Maybe. Sadly, past experience has taught me in the past that with some women bosses perhaps I should not be quite so trusting. This I consider sad. I know women may have struggled to get to where they have got to. I know I have. That’s no reason to be a bitch on wheels when they get there.If they see me as a threat I consider that the defect is theirs, not mine. For them to blame the patriarchy for their own actions is something I can’t buy and quite frankly I don’t think they would either.
Lest this be interpreted as tainting all women bosses or all women (it isn’t), I also know many marvellous, successful happy, wonderful, engaging supportive women who are blazing through life on their own terms and working to make things that much easier for women following them. They consider themselves as equal to any male counterpart - and they are. They don’t have time to play the blame game. They are a joy to be around, always encouraging, and I deliberately seek out people like this to be around. My boss and her boss are such people and I consider myself very fortunate. These are my role models.
December 17th, 2006 at 2:49 am
Britgirl,
Note I’m saying “be aware of how patriarchy influences”, not “blame everything on patriarchy”. Yes, society is made up of people. But at the same time, society isn’t *just* made up of people. Though perhaps that’s not a particularly productive argument to be having right now.
I’m uncomfortable (and perhaps this is my philosophy major showing) with this idea that acknowledging societal/structural limitations on our freedom to choose (one of which is patriarchy) necessarily means we’re complete victims with no power. Because yes, we’re not complete victims with no power, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we have complete autonomy, either. I find that conception altogether too simplistic.
You’re right: The sorts of female bosses you’re uncomfortable with (and I’ve had a few of those myself), aren’t likely to go around blaming the patriarchy for their behaviour. But we need to remember that often they’re being rewarded for that behaviour by sexist power structures. This doesn’t make their behaviour okay, but it means (to me at least) that hacking into the power structure that rewards it is a better goal. Wagging our finger at them and calling them bitches simply perpetuates the cycle of attacking each other, and I’m not really seeing how that’s productive. Sure, we get frustrated, because it’s frustrating behaviour, but I hardly think that sort of reaction to it is going to destroy sexism. That’s what I mean when I say it’s ultimately about patriarchy.
December 28th, 2006 at 3:01 am
Another fact is that the per cent of the women (atleast here in Sweden) who are afraid of going out at night and weekends due to the risk of violence etc, are much higher than the same number for men.
This leads to that about 25% of the Swedish women stay home all the time, being afraid, instead of going out having fun or living their lives.
The number for guys who stay home because they are afraid is about 8%.
You can also see that men more often are victims of violence, BUT the difference is that there are more often violence, abusement and so on based on a sexual matter directed to women.
weo, weo… segregation between the sexes is great -_-;;
Good list though. People need to read this stuff more often.
December 28th, 2006 at 7:12 am
By the way, Cecilia, this is only one out of many things that will help make the world a better place to live in…certainly not the only solution…but that said:
If any of your acquaintances make up part of this 25% or this 8% in Sweden, please let them know about Fullpower! Fullpower offers “padded assailant” self-defense training, which lets students feel the adrenaline rush of a real fight and hit as hard as they can without actually hurting the teacher.
Padded assailant training is an amazingly successful way of teaching people to live with less fear–more successful than traditional martial arts–and I highly recommend it.
I believe Fullpower classes are conducted in Sweden as an occasional add-on to the regular offerings from Kidpower.
January 31st, 2007 at 10:23 pm
I had a couple of friends who recently got married. They decided to have both of their names changed to a hyphenated combination. This way, they could both keep their name, but display their connection. However, when they went to the courthouse, my male friend found that he was not allowed to change his name. They asked the reason for this rule, but no one seemed to know why.
It was an odd lesson in old laws that have never been updated.
February 1st, 2007 at 8:14 am
Here in Washington state, you have to say husband and wife at least once in your wedding vows. It’s another insitutionalized example of sexism since husbnad > wife.
February 14th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Is it alright if I add this to a profile of mine? I’ll be sure to give full credit to you, of course.
Steph and Lake Desire both had good points. I’m in high school and when I feel bad or get a little snippy people will ask me if I’m on the “rag” or if my “tom” has come about. Addressing Lake Desire’s point, I haven’t heard of or seen a wedding that does not include the words husband and wife. Really, what’s wrong with wife and husband?
February 14th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Jae said:
I appreciate your interest! Although, truth be told, I’d be much more comfortable if you only posted an excerpt on your profile, then linked everyone to the original. Like I say in my note, this list grows and changes with time (links updated, new points added, etc) and because of that it’s better to click through instead of see an older version of it in full.
March 5th, 2007 at 12:34 am
[…] 5. BUT BUT BUT BUT… “But objectification isn’t always bad!” (@ Definition) “But it’s just a game / movie / comic / harmless entertainment!” (@ Shrub) “But it’s just a joke!” (@ Stormcloud) “But men are ALSO objectified!” (@ Like Scratches In The Sand) “But feminism has already achieved equality!” (@ Shrub again) […]
March 8th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
[…] This resonated with me first and foremost on a personal level, because I have faced the same struggles that kristy is describing. It also resonated on another level because of some of the most persistent and annoying criticism my Equality List about how it’s all “frivolous” and “petty shit” (of course, one of the best responses was a woman named Janis who boiled that language down to what it really means: “You can vote. What more do you want? Now show me your tits!”). And then, of course, there’s Mr T’s reaction, which is (as kristy points out in her post) the standard one for people with privilege. I intend to discuss all of those, though I’m not sure if the last one will be a Privilege in Action post, part of this series, or if I’ll try for both. […]
March 15th, 2007 at 11:29 am
I wonder how often you see these anti-woman acts. Some of them do exist, but not as much as they used to. I see it more the opposite now,I’m not bashing, but it does seem that you are grasping at straws now. Please forgive me if I offend, for that is not my goal. Just trying to understand where the line between equality and inequality is when it concerns feminism.
March 15th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Kenn: I published your comment because I believe you when you say you’re just trying to understand. But you need to respect the rules of this space. I have a set of discussion rules in place because this blog is constantly harassed by angry people, mostly men but some women too, who want to insult, diminish, and otherwise try to silence those who blog here.
This:
Is bashing, is minimizing, and is against the rules. If you preface something offensive by saying, “I’m not being offensive,” it doesn’t take the hurt, or the offense, out of the statement. All it does is give you a shield to block the valid criticism of the target if they decide to call you out on what you said.
Think about it this way: why do you feel that, as a man, your qualified to decide if women still face oppression and what kinds of oppression are valid? Have you ever though that, because you aren’t the target of most of the problems listed above that you might just not see it?
The struggle for equality may take many complex forms, but its root is simple: women want the ability to freely choose who we want to be without laws telling us we can’t, glass ceilings getting in our way, and social pressures telling us what “real women” are and causing us to react to that idea (either by buying into it or rebelling against it) rather than going with what suits us best.
If your truly sincere about wanting to learn more about feminism, then please check out the feminist 101 links at the top of my blog and, before you participate in any discussions, please read “Check my what?†On privilege and what we can do about it to see what, outside of breaking a space’s rules, isn’t cool in a space where you have privilege and the group does not.
April 3rd, 2007 at 8:40 am
[…] Think women have achieved equality? Think again. […]
April 3rd, 2007 at 8:41 am
[…] Think women have achieved equality? Think again. Posted by judyb12 Filed in ERA, girls, feminism […]
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:05 am
I am saddened by what I have read here: saddened by the truth of your article and saddened by the truth your article leaves out. Sexual division and discrimination hurts everyone involved. What may be seen as an advantage or a winning situation can also be a societal chain just as strong as the one that binds the oppressed. Take, for instance, the stay-at-home father who suddenly finds himself unable to attend classes with his child because they are all for “mommy and me”, who is not called to join community parental boards because he is a man and who must change his child’s diaper in a dirty hallway because there are no changing stations in the men’s public bathroom. Think for instance of the father who is divorced from his wife and is refused either joint or primary custody of the children on the sole basis that he is the father, and therefor the money earner. He is reviled, hated, scorned for not being a part of the lives of his children even though he fought to do just that but was refused on the basis of his gender. Think of the man who is dismissed by family, ridiculed by friends (male and female alike) when he chooses to follow a career in nurture or arts instead of business or government. Thank of the male teacher involved with a student who is presumed to be a predator when a woman in the same situation is simply “misguided”.
I don’t bring these up as a rebuttal. I bring them up instead to hopefully illustrate that the more we focus only on one side of an issue we become blinded to the rest. Gender equality is not a woman’s issue. It is not a man’s issue. It is an issue for all. THAT is the goal we should strive for, and equality will never be achieved until we as a society of people recognize it.
April 3rd, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Andy: Your comment is pretty much in violation of the thread hijacking clause in the discussion rules, but I have decided to allow it first because you were polite and second because I want this addressed and put to bed once and for all.
Yes, men are hurt by the patriarchy too. That’s why there is a masculinities section on this blog. That’s why I have links to blogs by feminist men and other resources aimed at men. That’s one of the reasons why two of the bloggers who blog here are male.
But it’s not a zero sum game and it won’t be any time soon. Yes, men are hurt, but women are hurt more. Yes, men deserve places to talk about their issues but a thread debunking the myth that gender equality has been achieved is not one of them. And, furthermore, it is not my, or any other woman’s, responsibility to bring up those issues.
You want to talk about how men are hurt? Good, go to another one of my threads that discusses that. Or go to one of the blogs linked on my sidebar designed just for that. But coming onto a blog and reading one post that explicitly states that it’s about women’s issues in the fracking subject line and saying how “sad” it is that I haven’t given your pet issues more airtime on my blog is just insulting.
General note: This is the last I will say on this subject, and any more comments trying to discuss men’s issues on this thread will not pass moderation. You have been warned.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:22 am
I love this list! Can I link it to my blog?
CosmicChaos, I am in almost the same predicament myself. I am trying to work out what I can do about this, if I found a way would you like to help me?
April 23rd, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Thank you! And of course you can
May 21st, 2007 at 12:58 am
[…] This is great because it’s true. You could play feminist bingo with this. Category: Female thinking 20:25 […]
October 18th, 2007 at 5:21 am
[…] point that on my (heavily moderated) blog, I still had to write a disclaimer on the top of my post on women and equality that the post wasn’t about men because practically every other comment I was getting was […]
November 26th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
I’m frankly bothered by your responses to the men who posted on the site about how they did not understand how a certain item on your list was bad for women or how they believed it was important to point out ways in which gender roles hurt both men AND women. I agree that the purpose of this post is to address women’s issues and not men’s and that it was more than fair of you to add men’s issues to the list. However, it bothers me that you seem very ready to censure any man who dares to post an opposing viewpoint or who does not fully understand the list.
I’m a woman who is often frustrated by men “not getting it” or pointing out instances of prejudice against them when they are in fact a part of the privileged group, but I believe that the best way to make the women’s movement larger and more successful is to not be rude or dismissive to these men. When these men ask questions or read a feminist blog, it is something to be celebrated (and taken advantage of as a learning opportunity), and we should be kind and supportive in our approach to them. Just like in the gay rights movement, allies are incredibly important. We need members of the majority group to better our understanding and to help us combat the system itself, which is the reason that women have NOT achieved equality yet.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:26 am
Foxglove said:
First of all, it’s written clearly in the discussion rules that comments demanding airtime to be given to men’s issues on a thread specifically about women’s issues are not allowed. Despite the clear violation of the rules, I still gave these men enough of the benefit of the doubt to publish their comments and give some sort of reply. Frankly, I don’t think that it’s right to demand that I be a paragon of politeness at all times, especially when I’ve heard the same argument trotted out a thousand times.
You can run your space however you see fit, but frankly I’ve had more than two years of experience dealing with men who make those kinds of arguments. None of the tactics I have tried have worked, and at the publication of those comments I didn’t yet have this post to refer them to. And, frankly, I find it more than a little ridiculous that I’ve spent most of this thread publishing and rebutting comments about men when it’s a post about women. Men don’t need to be the center of attention all the time, and — as I point out at the top of this page — there are many places that they can go to discuss the ways in which they are hurt by society.
And now that that’s out of the way, no further comments on that subject will be published. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: This is not the place to discuss men. This is a thread talking about women and any future discussion needs to be on topic or it will not be published.
December 7th, 2007 at 6:29 am
wwwwwooooooowwwwwww so cool i really agree. and i have never thought of things like tht but i am happy to stand up for woman rights thnks this sight is an inspiration.
P.S. im not gayyy! Im a guy on my lil sis’ email
December 31st, 2007 at 12:49 am
[…] We Can’t Be Equal While… […]
February 8th, 2008 at 6:26 am
Hi,
I’m not submitting this comment for publication. I just want to quietly mention something about this page.
I’m one of the bloggers for the F-word website and would like to include a link to “Think Women Have Achieved Equality? Think Again” to back up my viewpoint. (As requested, I won’t reproduce large chunks of the text and will let readers go to the page to see for themselves.) However, I’ve noticed a possible problem with the format of the quotation marks. Admittedly, we’ve had the same issue crop up from time to time on the F-word blog…
I’m concerned that some readers won’t read through the page because of this issue. I guess it may be the browser I’m using but I’d like to flag up the problem anyway -just in case- as I’d like the page to perform at its absolute optimum when any F-word readers go to it.
Cheers,
Holly
February 8th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Holly: Those problems are a holdover from when I had to manually migrate my database (the size of it caused certain formatting to mess up on many of the older articles). I’ve been fixing them as I come across them, but I guess I overlooked this article.
Anyway, I’ve fixed the problem and updated the article (bouns!). Thanks for letting me know and including me in your article
February 26th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
I applaud you for posting this! I found this link through the “Male Privilege Checklist”, and am sure to send a link to this page to all of my friends and hopefully bring up excerpts in my school’s Woman’s Group. I have also read through all of the comments left thus far, and have seen a lot of interesting discussion going on about the role that men play within sexism, and the “sexism” directed towards men. I agree with all of the points you have made on this subject, but would like to add that just as a person of color cannot be racist towards a white man/woman/ze by definition, a woman cannot be sexist towards a man. It isn’t the same thing when the power imbalance between the two are so in favor of one person, as is the case with both of these -isms. I feel like there are so many comments about the so called sexism against men because most men (as well as people who identify as white–I know this from experience) feel uncomfortable about the idea that there is actually a system of instituted sexism that they are going with the flow along, and as a defense against these feelings try to reason that females aren’t the only ones getting the tip of the blade. It’s hard to realize (again, from experience) that you are part of a group of people that have been oppressing another group for many times your own lifespan, and it’s easy to feel like you are being attacked.
Luckily, once people get past this point they realize that there are ways to be actively-anti-sexist as well as ways to be actively-anti-racist as opposed to just going with the institutionalized sexism and racism that you have been fed all your life. I hope and pray that I will survive to see a change in how I am treated and my over-all equality as a woman within this country, as well as survive to see and meet more actively-anti-sexist men who actually stand up and say “that’s NOT acceptable.”
April 4th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
[…] Please, everyone go read this, Andrea’s done a fabulous job of explaining why we still need feminism: Think we’ve achieved equality? Think again. […]
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Excellent article, I must say. It does a great job of pointing out some of the difficulties that women face, but are often so hard to put into words that an opposing speaker wont just rip apart and “debunk”. Because these things are so ingrained into our society, it is hard for people to admit to their own acceptance of such harmful things (for everyone). Still, it doesn’t seem beneficial to push down the people who try to argue (within reason) that there are difficulties for men when they aren’t pulling it completely off-topic. That is addressing the rules themselves rather than their enforcement. That being said, it’s still an excellent post, and I can see myself linking to it repeatedly.
May 7th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Excellent essay! I really like that you’ve shown how sexism and the inequality of women affects both genders in a negative way. Under gender roles, I would recommend adding one more: “We can never be equal so long as women aren’t allowed to go into combat and men are forced to.” I think that the US military sort of represents the pinnacle of sexism in America today, because every where you look the genders are completely unequal. Granted, it has gotten better, but like your post says there is still a long way to go.