I find the idea that I must hold childrearing in some kind of awe and reverence kind of strange.

I 100% agree with you on this. I think childrearing is an important part of society, and should be valued on the same level as other work, but I don’t think that it’s a “miracle” or whatever.

I guess that’s where my distinction between childrearing and childmaking comes into play. I see childrearing as the act of bringing up the child you have taken responsibility for and helping guide them into becoming active members of society. On the other hand, I see childmaking as thinking that you’re special becuase you made a baby and it can do no wrong, so you don’t have to do any more work. Obviously I respect the former position and not the latter.

If there are extreme parents out there who think non-parents are the kind of morons one best belittles or ignores, then there are extreme non-parents.

Agreed. And one thing I was trying to convey in this whole debate was that the extremists on both sides shouldn’t dictate the frame. We, the sane non-parents and parents, should be the ones who set the tone for the discussion - and that tone should be tolerance and understanding.

Personally, knowing what James has been trying to say on numerous blogs and reading what he actually said, I see no reason why others subjected him to the kind of derogatory, personal attacks that they did.

Aside from Dru and possibly Nykol (although, from what I read, the problems between them seem to be that they’re both reading in things in the other’s post that isn’t there), was there another place in the debate that James was getting slammed? I ask because I know the debate continued on elsewhere and I was curious if it was a prevalent attitude among posters, or limited to a few. Maybe it’s better if I ask James, though, LOL

I don’t agree with James and his perspective (mainly because I wasn’t raised in the South and don’t really care about social propriety) but that doesn’t make his viewpoint any less valid in my mind.

Exactly.

Well, I think i’ve done a good job agreeing with your post LOL But there’s no harm in preaching to the choir, I suppose…

Regarding attitudes of non-parents, I suppose you’re right. If there are extreme parents out there who think non-parents are the kind of morons one best belittles or ignores, then there are extreme non-parents. I just know that my liberalism doesn’t allow me to be that kind of crazy non-parent. When my taxes leave my pocket, they are no longer mine and I don’t care where they go as long as they are benefitting society at large.

I’m aware of the flame-war and again, I’m mostly shocked that people could be so uncivil over this issue. Some of the other posters who commented on this issue have been completely below-the-belt. When you have to resort to childish ad hominem attacks to “prove your point” then there’s a fundamental problem with what you’re trying to say. Personally, knowing what James has been trying to say on numerous blogs and reading what he actually said, I see no reason why others subjected him to the kind of derogatory, personal attacks that they did. While it may take some work to read James’ stuff, I think he’s clear on what his point is — and certainly he was not saying anything that he was being accused of saying. I took offense at the idea that just because he disagreed with public breast-feeding, that he was not a feminist, or even a misogynist.

I guess others just didn’t want to put in the effort to understand a differing viewpoint. I don’t agree with James and his perspective (mainly because I wasn’t raised in the South and don’t really care about social propriety) but that doesn’t make his viewpoint any less valid in my mind.

Re: harshness - Coming from the non-parent part of the divide, especially the part that doesn’t want children ever, I understood what you were trying to say. I could just see, however, why certain parts of your post would make some parents bristle. Not because you intended them to sound that way, but rather that someone without an insider perspective would likely read it in a negative light. Does that make sense?

The thing is, though, that I don’t think any non-parent disregards that.

See that’s where my experience differs from yours. I have seen that kind of attitude. The “I’m never going to have kids, so why should any of my tax dollars/wages/etc go to fund things like childcare?” attitude crops up now and again in parents vs childfree debates. I’m going to stress that the attidue is not common to all, or even most, childfree people by any means, but it’s there. I can understand it, to an extent, but at the same time I don’t agree that it’s beneficial for us not to support a broader issue just because we won’t personally and directly benefit from it.

You’d think that would be an easy concept for people to get, but it’s really not. I’ve seen that kind of attitude applied to anything from childcare to women’s rights. That’s one reason why I thought to bring it up as an issue of common ground - better societal support for parents does actually give a tangible benefit to everyone, not just the parents themselves.

In the end, I just wanted to thank you for keeping your head cool on all this

Hah. Well, I do try. My post on James’ blog got me into a mini-flamewar on marginal notations, which makes me feel bad. I had been trying to keep things civil over there because Dru had been playing nice with Nykol. I still don’t know why she decided to post there instead of James’ blog, which would have been more appropriate. Oh well. I’m just ready for that drama to be done with already, y’know?

and realizing that everyone’s point of view is going to be different on this topic, but that there can be some common ground that can and should be found despite that diversity.

That’s one of my basic philosophies in life. Assuming people are fundamentally neutral, but society in general encourages us to be good, I believe that most people’s viewpoints are not rooted in hatred but rather in a fundamental difference in seeing things. If we can see that 1) differences are ok, and 2) differing thoughts don’t always have to be mutually exclusive, then I think there would be a lot less intolerance floating around.

Strangely, I actually felt very gratified when I first stumbled upon the article in the NY Times. It was almost like I had been saying something for years and no one had been listening until just now. It was that reaction that I felt made the whole thing worth talking about — maybe they really don’t listen to us non-parents as parents would like to believe.

That being said, I absolutely agree that this society is child-friendly only when convenient. While I don’t think parents are exactly oppressed in America, there is still some measure of inconvenience and intolerance towards certain kinds of parents (particularly poor, unwed kinds) that we must deal with. Though we’ve made great strides to make it easier for mothers and fathers to bring their children out in public, you’re right that we still have not found the right balance between adults and children. Certainly, one place that is a problem is the workplace, as you mention, with many companies wrongly believing that child-rearing can be completely divorced from a 9-to-5 workday and don’t provide means for people to both be good parents and good employees.

The thing is, though, that I don’t think any non-parent disregards that. I don’t think that I, as a non-parent, think it’s easy to be a parent. Hell, I couldn’t (and wouldn’t) tell you whether breast-feeding is healthy or not, or how to schedule your life around your child. I’m not a parent. I don’t pretend to be. But that doesn’t mean that I can and should be written off as unimportant — that’s a lack of respect issue that shouldn’t go unaddressed. If I can respect parents enough to respect that how they raise their child is fundamentally their decision, they should respect me enough to be considerate when their child-rearing practices adversely affect those around them.

I like your idea for the airlines, although I’m sure we both recognize the bad politics and inconvenience of it all. We’d be treading that separate-but-equal line that was first addressed with Brown v. Board of Education. But if there were a way to make such a system fair for all parties, I think it would be a good way of handling the current problem. I guess the kicker would be whether or not such separated flights would be mandatory or not.

Overall, I guess I just wanted to reiterate that I think your criticism of my harshness is fair and, in DruBlood’s defense, I was interested in hearing the counterpart to my opinions. I do think it’s important that non-parents be just as open to parental experiences as I expect them to be of mine (even if I don’t really understand and sometimes don’t want to hear it), and so I think we shouldn’t begrudge DruBlood for at least speaking her mind. That being said, I think it’s unnecessary to be overly harsh, cruel and below-the-belt over this issue. It only shows how close-minded people on both sides can really be towards people, like you, tekanji, who’re looking for a real and fair compromise. In the end, I just wanted to thank you for keeping your head cool on all this and realizing that everyone’s point of view is going to be different on this topic, but that there can be some common ground that can and should be found despite that diversity.

I’m sorry to hear that this is a typical reaction rather than an outside incident. She does make some good points; if she could learn to be more civil I’m sure she could do a lot of good.