Well, as an example on the equality front, I’d use the current push by the Australian conservative government to change welfare rules and force women of school-age children into work. This is, of course, without the child-care that would effectively allow them to work. Instead, there’s a language of equality noting that “many women work”, without acknolwedging the very different *reality* of the childcare / domestic labour situation that faces women and men.

But my main thoughts are on a more personal level, that “equality” negates the cognitive problems that men face dealing with women’s issues. We simply have a different life experience, and papering that over in order to achieve larger goals is, I think, unnecessary. So while I support a concept of “equality” in the sense of a “power balance” (which is clearly and unjustly skewed right now), I’m wary of letting that slip into “men and women are equal”. Why can’t men just support feminist concerns, why do we need to call ourselves “feminist”? i’m interested in the male desire there rather than just how it might be perceived.

So I’d suggest that I *do* fight for “equal rights” for women in many of the situations where women are seeking them. I don’t feel excluded from that struggle, many women obviously welcome the support. As your comment pointed out, thank you!

Best of luck for the blog!

Still, I think there’s a difference when men say that gender doesn’t matter.

Absolutely, and not just when it comes to whether or not they identify as “feminist”, “pro-feminist”, “friend of feminists”, or what have you. The idealist in me wishes it wasn’t that way, but of course that’s just yet one more reason why I am a feminist: the world shouldn’t be this way and something has to be done to change it.

From my POV, the most useful thing men can do with respect to women’s rights is 1) just shutting up for a bit and not telling them what they should do, and 2) critiquing male expressions of dominance. I’m not sure how men identifying as feminist helps this.

I think we could all benefit from a little shutting up sometimes. ^^; But I do agree with you; because of the position afforded to them by society, it’s important for men to be extra cautious of how they approach the issue of women’s rights. That’s not to say that a male perspective, or experience, isn’t valuable but rather that combating male dominance with male dominance is not an ultimately helpful approach.

When it comes to your second, point, however, I think that it’s a bit more complicated than simply “critiquing male expressions of dominance.” The entire system of patriarchy, which I see as a broader range of subjects woven together by male dominance, needs to be critiqued. More than simply understanding and acknowledging their privilege, men need to experience working side by side with intelligent, motivated, and committed women like themselves. That, of course, is where your first point is invaluable: they need to be able to do so without trying to dominate the situation. While it may go against social conditioning, my experience is that working together like that is not too far-fetched of an idea.

I guess one of the important terms that you raise with respect to this is “equality” - my point of view would be that equality is often used to justify not engaging in justice, and to police difference.

Do you see these two problems happening with feminism/women’s rights legislation right now? In regards to policing difference, do you think that finding a way to include men in the fight for equal rights would have any effect on the situation? Do you think there’s any link between the “equality” you describe and the pervading notion that “equality” means enforced “sameness”?

Sorry to hit you with a bunch of questions, but I think you’ve brought up an intriguing point and I want to get a better idea of your position on this in terms of feminist ideals, the movement itself, and men’s place in all this.

Anyway, thank you for your comment on my article. It’s always a pleasure to debate with someone with a different perspective than me.

Now this might seem obtuse, but I guess I would respond by suggesting that there’s a difference between how you saying that and David or I saying that would be received by “potential feminists”. I absolutely endorse your perspective, and of course my interest in feminism is predominantly in that area motivated by roughly “anti-foundationalist” ethics. Still, I think there’s a difference when men say that gender doesn’t matter.

I guess one of the important terms that you raise with respect to this is “equality” - my point of view would be that equality is often used to justify not engaging in justice, and to police difference. In Aotearoa, it is perniciously used to prevent institutional redress after colonisation). To me, doing what is good, right, or just is more about suspending judgement and allowing the other to play a role in our interaction, rather than “treating them equally”. Because the question is, then, who measures the equality? From my POV, the most useful thing men can do with respect to women’s rights is 1) just shutting up for a bit and not telling them what they should do, and 2) critiquing male expressions of dominance. I’m not sure how men identifying as feminist helps this. The irony is that I think that it’s through (1) (which is very hard for white guys to do as we are born to rule :7) that I have felt accepted in various political movements that are not mine.

To summarise that convoluted response: women articulating roles for men in feminism is good, as you point out; men articulating their own position as feminists is more problematic. At least that’s how I see it. I don’t know if that is useful, but thanks for stimulating my thoughts there!