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	<title>Comments on: Alpha Males, Calling Out, and Frown Power</title>
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	<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351</link>
	<description>Because we care about stuff</description>
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		<title>By: jeffliveshere</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351/comment-page-1#comment-1769</link>
		<dc:creator>jeffliveshere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 20:15:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I think the difference is that it doesnâ€™t assert any special status on the part of the person doing it (which also means it avoids the â€œwhite knight temptationâ€).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
You may be right, and I may be just trying to &#039;push&#039; dominance hierarchies into any sort of description of an interaction between people--but it still seems to me that the frowner can&#039;t help but say something about status by frowning--i.e. &#039;I know you&#039;re doing something wrong&#039; isn&#039;t divorced completely from &#039;You have a lower status than I do&#039;--at least from the perspective of the frownee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I think the difference is that it doesnâ€™t assert any special status on the part of the person doing it (which also means it avoids the â€œwhite knight temptationâ€).</p></blockquote>
<p>You may be right, and I may be just trying to &#8216;push&#8217; dominance hierarchies into any sort of description of an interaction between people&#8211;but it still seems to me that the frowner can&#8217;t help but say something about status by frowning&#8211;i.e. &#8216;I know you&#8217;re doing something wrong&#8217; isn&#8217;t divorced completely from &#8216;You have a lower status than I do&#8217;&#8211;at least from the perspective of the frownee.</p>
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		<title>By: Dora</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351/comment-page-1#comment-1768</link>
		<dc:creator>Dora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 19:40:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351#comment-1768</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;jeffliveshere&lt;/i&gt;: Another problem with the &quot;What if that woman were your ______?&quot; tactic is that a lot of sexists (as with racists, homophobes, etc.) will acknowledge that individual members of a group are good, but still hold stereotypes about the group. So, for example, if you called out a man for sexually harassing a woman by bringing up his sister, the man might respond by saying something like, &quot;My sister is a woman who deserves respect, but this women doesn&#039;t because she acts/looks/dresses slutty.&quot;

I do think it&#039;s a useful tactic in some situations, though. It depends on the person doing the speaking and the person doing the listening, and how each one feels about dominance plays. I&#039;ve seen men use &quot;frown power&quot; to great effect in a group that is close and casual; I also know men who would react as poorly as you describe. You&#039;re right, in that it&#039;s always a matter of degree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>jeffliveshere</i>: Another problem with the &#8220;What if that woman were your ______?&#8221; tactic is that a lot of sexists (as with racists, homophobes, etc.) will acknowledge that individual members of a group are good, but still hold stereotypes about the group. So, for example, if you called out a man for sexually harassing a woman by bringing up his sister, the man might respond by saying something like, &#8220;My sister is a woman who deserves respect, but this women doesn&#8217;t because she acts/looks/dresses slutty.&#8221;</p>
<p>I do think it&#8217;s a useful tactic in some situations, though. It depends on the person doing the speaking and the person doing the listening, and how each one feels about dominance plays. I&#8217;ve seen men use &#8220;frown power&#8221; to great effect in a group that is close and casual; I also know men who would react as poorly as you describe. You&#8217;re right, in that it&#8217;s always a matter of degree.</p>
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		<title>By: jfpbookworm</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351/comment-page-1#comment-1767</link>
		<dc:creator>jfpbookworm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 18:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351#comment-1767</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;still, I think even â€˜peerâ€™ relationships have a power dynamic, and I still think that men interact with men within a domination hierarchy, whether among peers or not.  For instance, if you frown at somebody, that could very well cause him to fall into â€˜hierarchy modeâ€™â€“and he may respond defensively &lt;i&gt;because he feels like his power is being taken away from him,&lt;/i&gt; rather than respond thoughtfully because a peer is trying to help him.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Hmm.  I agree that the respondent can become defensive and try turn it into a power struggle in an attempt to regain respect (though usually the &quot;frowner&quot; can simply refuse to play along), but I don&#039;t think this makes using &quot;frown power&quot; an act of dominance.  I think the difference is that it doesn&#039;t assert any special status on the part of the person doing it (which also means it avoids the &quot;white knight temptation&quot;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>still, I think even â€˜peerâ€™ relationships have a power dynamic, and I still think that men interact with men within a domination hierarchy, whether among peers or not.  For instance, if you frown at somebody, that could very well cause him to fall into â€˜hierarchy modeâ€™â€“and he may respond defensively <i>because he feels like his power is being taken away from him,</i> rather than respond thoughtfully because a peer is trying to help him.</p></blockquote>
<p>Hmm.  I agree that the respondent can become defensive and try turn it into a power struggle in an attempt to regain respect (though usually the &#8220;frowner&#8221; can simply refuse to play along), but I don&#8217;t think this makes using &#8220;frown power&#8221; an act of dominance.  I think the difference is that it doesn&#8217;t assert any special status on the part of the person doing it (which also means it avoids the &#8220;white knight temptation&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: jeffliveshere</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351/comment-page-1#comment-1766</link>
		<dc:creator>jeffliveshere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351#comment-1766</guid>
		<description>I appreciate you opening up this discussion to a larger audience, Jeff.  I think the &#039;frown power&#039; idea is a good one, and is one of the least &#039;dominant hierarchic&#039; ways of calling out sexism among men.  Still, I&#039;m not quite sure about this:
&lt;blockquote&gt;This doesnâ€™t reinforce a dominance hierarchy because the message is one of peer disapproval rather than of asserting dominance, and itâ€™s a lot less taxing on the introvert than a long tirade.&lt;/blockquote&gt;  The notion of peer disapproval is a good one, and probably is an important facet of describing power balances among men; still, I think even &#039;peer&#039; relationships have a power dynamic, and I still think that men interact with men within a domination hierarchy, whether among peers or not. For instance, if you frown at somebody, that could very well cause him to fall into &#039;hierarchy mode&#039;--and he may respond defensively &lt;i&gt;because he feels like his power is being taken away from him&lt;/i&gt;, rather than respond thoughtfully because a peer is trying to help him.  That sort of defensiveness is likely, I think, even among men who think through the lenses of gender and hierarchy and everything.  

As for other suggestions:  One thing that I&#039;ve been trying recently is to point out men&#039;s relationships to women in their lives, when I see sexism. Lots of men do have some respect for sisters/mothers/teachers/daughters, for instance, sort of &#039;built-in&#039;--and appealing to that can be a way of approaching things.  I still think there&#039;s a problem of dominance hierarchy, though, because &quot;What if that woman were your sister?&quot; can not only appeal to patriarchy in general (i.e. &#039;men must protect women&#039;) but also is still a &#039;challenge&#039; to the man being called out. How to make it not a challenge is, of course, the problem--and I&#039;m beginning to suspect that it&#039;s going to just be a matter of degree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate you opening up this discussion to a larger audience, Jeff.  I think the &#8216;frown power&#8217; idea is a good one, and is one of the least &#8216;dominant hierarchic&#8217; ways of calling out sexism among men.  Still, I&#8217;m not quite sure about this:</p>
<blockquote><p>This doesnâ€™t reinforce a dominance hierarchy because the message is one of peer disapproval rather than of asserting dominance, and itâ€™s a lot less taxing on the introvert than a long tirade.</p></blockquote>
<p>  The notion of peer disapproval is a good one, and probably is an important facet of describing power balances among men; still, I think even &#8216;peer&#8217; relationships have a power dynamic, and I still think that men interact with men within a domination hierarchy, whether among peers or not. For instance, if you frown at somebody, that could very well cause him to fall into &#8216;hierarchy mode&#8217;&#8211;and he may respond defensively <i>because he feels like his power is being taken away from him</i>, rather than respond thoughtfully because a peer is trying to help him.  That sort of defensiveness is likely, I think, even among men who think through the lenses of gender and hierarchy and everything.  </p>
<p>As for other suggestions:  One thing that I&#8217;ve been trying recently is to point out men&#8217;s relationships to women in their lives, when I see sexism. Lots of men do have some respect for sisters/mothers/teachers/daughters, for instance, sort of &#8216;built-in&#8217;&#8211;and appealing to that can be a way of approaching things.  I still think there&#8217;s a problem of dominance hierarchy, though, because &#8220;What if that woman were your sister?&#8221; can not only appeal to patriarchy in general (i.e. &#8216;men must protect women&#8217;) but also is still a &#8216;challenge&#8217; to the man being called out. How to make it not a challenge is, of course, the problem&#8211;and I&#8217;m beginning to suspect that it&#8217;s going to just be a matter of degree.</p>
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