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	<title>Comments on: Alpha Males, Calling Out, and Frown Power</title>
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	<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351</link>
	<description>Because we care about stuff</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:24:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: jeffliveshere</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351#comment-1769</link>
		<dc:creator>jeffliveshere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 20:15:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351#comment-1769</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I think the difference is that it doesnâ€™t assert any special status on the part of the person doing it (which also means it avoids the â€œwhite knight temptationâ€).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
You may be right, and I may be just trying to 'push' dominance hierarchies into any sort of description of an interaction between people--but it still seems to me that the frowner can't help but say something about status by frowning--i.e. 'I know you're doing something wrong' isn't divorced completely from 'You have a lower status than I do'--at least from the perspective of the frownee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I think the difference is that it doesnâ€™t assert any special status on the part of the person doing it (which also means it avoids the â€œwhite knight temptationâ€).</p></blockquote>
<p>You may be right, and I may be just trying to &#8216;push&#8217; dominance hierarchies into any sort of description of an interaction between people&#8211;but it still seems to me that the frowner can&#8217;t help but say something about status by frowning&#8211;i.e. &#8216;I know you&#8217;re doing something wrong&#8217; isn&#8217;t divorced completely from &#8216;You have a lower status than I do&#8217;&#8211;at least from the perspective of the frownee.</p>
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		<title>By: Dora</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351#comment-1768</link>
		<dc:creator>Dora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 19:40:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351#comment-1768</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;jeffliveshere&lt;/i&gt;: Another problem with the "What if that woman were your ______?" tactic is that a lot of sexists (as with racists, homophobes, etc.) will acknowledge that individual members of a group are good, but still hold stereotypes about the group. So, for example, if you called out a man for sexually harassing a woman by bringing up his sister, the man might respond by saying something like, "My sister is a woman who deserves respect, but this women doesn't because she acts/looks/dresses slutty."

I do think it's a useful tactic in some situations, though. It depends on the person doing the speaking and the person doing the listening, and how each one feels about dominance plays. I've seen men use "frown power" to great effect in a group that is close and casual; I also know men who would react as poorly as you describe. You're right, in that it's always a matter of degree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>jeffliveshere</i>: Another problem with the &#8220;What if that woman were your ______?&#8221; tactic is that a lot of sexists (as with racists, homophobes, etc.) will acknowledge that individual members of a group are good, but still hold stereotypes about the group. So, for example, if you called out a man for sexually harassing a woman by bringing up his sister, the man might respond by saying something like, &#8220;My sister is a woman who deserves respect, but this women doesn&#8217;t because she acts/looks/dresses slutty.&#8221;</p>
<p>I do think it&#8217;s a useful tactic in some situations, though. It depends on the person doing the speaking and the person doing the listening, and how each one feels about dominance plays. I&#8217;ve seen men use &#8220;frown power&#8221; to great effect in a group that is close and casual; I also know men who would react as poorly as you describe. You&#8217;re right, in that it&#8217;s always a matter of degree.</p>
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		<title>By: jfpbookworm</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351#comment-1767</link>
		<dc:creator>jfpbookworm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 18:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351#comment-1767</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;still, I think even â€˜peerâ€™ relationships have a power dynamic, and I still think that men interact with men within a domination hierarchy, whether among peers or not.  For instance, if you frown at somebody, that could very well cause him to fall into â€˜hierarchy modeâ€™â€“and he may respond defensively &lt;i&gt;because he feels like his power is being taken away from him,&lt;/i&gt; rather than respond thoughtfully because a peer is trying to help him.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Hmm.  I agree that the respondent can become defensive and try turn it into a power struggle in an attempt to regain respect (though usually the "frowner" can simply refuse to play along), but I don't think this makes using "frown power" an act of dominance.  I think the difference is that it doesn't assert any special status on the part of the person doing it (which also means it avoids the "white knight temptation").</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>still, I think even â€˜peerâ€™ relationships have a power dynamic, and I still think that men interact with men within a domination hierarchy, whether among peers or not.  For instance, if you frown at somebody, that could very well cause him to fall into â€˜hierarchy modeâ€™â€“and he may respond defensively <i>because he feels like his power is being taken away from him,</i> rather than respond thoughtfully because a peer is trying to help him.</p></blockquote>
<p>Hmm.  I agree that the respondent can become defensive and try turn it into a power struggle in an attempt to regain respect (though usually the &#8220;frowner&#8221; can simply refuse to play along), but I don&#8217;t think this makes using &#8220;frown power&#8221; an act of dominance.  I think the difference is that it doesn&#8217;t assert any special status on the part of the person doing it (which also means it avoids the &#8220;white knight temptation&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: jeffliveshere</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351#comment-1766</link>
		<dc:creator>jeffliveshere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/jfpbookworm/2006-08-02_351#comment-1766</guid>
		<description>I appreciate you opening up this discussion to a larger audience, Jeff.  I think the 'frown power' idea is a good one, and is one of the least 'dominant hierarchic' ways of calling out sexism among men.  Still, I'm not quite sure about this:
&lt;blockquote&gt;This doesnâ€™t reinforce a dominance hierarchy because the message is one of peer disapproval rather than of asserting dominance, and itâ€™s a lot less taxing on the introvert than a long tirade.&lt;/blockquote&gt;  The notion of peer disapproval is a good one, and probably is an important facet of describing power balances among men; still, I think even 'peer' relationships have a power dynamic, and I still think that men interact with men within a domination hierarchy, whether among peers or not. For instance, if you frown at somebody, that could very well cause him to fall into 'hierarchy mode'--and he may respond defensively &lt;i&gt;because he feels like his power is being taken away from him&lt;/i&gt;, rather than respond thoughtfully because a peer is trying to help him.  That sort of defensiveness is likely, I think, even among men who think through the lenses of gender and hierarchy and everything.  

As for other suggestions:  One thing that I've been trying recently is to point out men's relationships to women in their lives, when I see sexism. Lots of men do have some respect for sisters/mothers/teachers/daughters, for instance, sort of 'built-in'--and appealing to that can be a way of approaching things.  I still think there's a problem of dominance hierarchy, though, because "What if that woman were your sister?" can not only appeal to patriarchy in general (i.e. 'men must protect women') but also is still a 'challenge' to the man being called out. How to make it not a challenge is, of course, the problem--and I'm beginning to suspect that it's going to just be a matter of degree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate you opening up this discussion to a larger audience, Jeff.  I think the &#8216;frown power&#8217; idea is a good one, and is one of the least &#8216;dominant hierarchic&#8217; ways of calling out sexism among men.  Still, I&#8217;m not quite sure about this:</p>
<blockquote><p>This doesnâ€™t reinforce a dominance hierarchy because the message is one of peer disapproval rather than of asserting dominance, and itâ€™s a lot less taxing on the introvert than a long tirade.</p></blockquote>
<p>  The notion of peer disapproval is a good one, and probably is an important facet of describing power balances among men; still, I think even &#8216;peer&#8217; relationships have a power dynamic, and I still think that men interact with men within a domination hierarchy, whether among peers or not. For instance, if you frown at somebody, that could very well cause him to fall into &#8216;hierarchy mode&#8217;&#8211;and he may respond defensively <i>because he feels like his power is being taken away from him</i>, rather than respond thoughtfully because a peer is trying to help him.  That sort of defensiveness is likely, I think, even among men who think through the lenses of gender and hierarchy and everything.  </p>
<p>As for other suggestions:  One thing that I&#8217;ve been trying recently is to point out men&#8217;s relationships to women in their lives, when I see sexism. Lots of men do have some respect for sisters/mothers/teachers/daughters, for instance, sort of &#8216;built-in&#8217;&#8211;and appealing to that can be a way of approaching things.  I still think there&#8217;s a problem of dominance hierarchy, though, because &#8220;What if that woman were your sister?&#8221; can not only appeal to patriarchy in general (i.e. &#8216;men must protect women&#8217;) but also is still a &#8216;challenge&#8217; to the man being called out. How to make it not a challenge is, of course, the problem&#8211;and I&#8217;m beginning to suspect that it&#8217;s going to just be a matter of degree.</p>
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