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	<title>Comments on: Discursive patterns regarding sexual violence [Women and Violence, Part 3]</title>
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	<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578</link>
	<description>Because we care about stuff</description>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578/comment-page-1#comment-170982</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 21:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578#comment-170982</guid>
		<description>Somehow, the argument that I should avoid &quot;teh cock&quot; in order to not support misogyny sounds a little bit like the &quot;she was asking for it!&quot; rape defense. Like, maybe if women weren&#039;t &quot;sluts&quot; all the time, men would respect them? :p Or maybe, the idea is that I will never be interacted with by someone I&#039;m not sexually involved with? &#039;Cause if not sleeping with someone made them leave me alone, I&#039;d be set. I&#039;d get fewer telemarketers, too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somehow, the argument that I should avoid &#8220;teh cock&#8221; in order to not support misogyny sounds a little bit like the &#8220;she was asking for it!&#8221; rape defense. Like, maybe if women weren&#8217;t &#8220;sluts&#8221; all the time, men would respect them? :p Or maybe, the idea is that I will never be interacted with by someone I&#8217;m not sexually involved with? &#8216;Cause if not sleeping with someone made them leave me alone, I&#8217;d be set. I&#8217;d get fewer telemarketers, too!</p>
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		<title>By: Sigel Phoenix</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578/comment-page-1#comment-64030</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigel Phoenix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 21:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578#comment-64030</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;evil incarnate&lt;/b&gt;:&lt;blockquote&gt;You wouldnâ€™t knowingly support a business which enabled the continuance of something you donâ€™t like, so why do women continue to enable teh cock by associating with it?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Your analogy doesn&#039;t hold up for me. Even if I didn&#039;t support a business, I wouldn&#039;t necessarily dismiss the individuals who worked in it. I would speak out about their complicity, to be sure, but I wouldn&#039;t hold them responsible for the institution itself.

Similarly, sexism isn&#039;t the &quot;fault&quot; of any particular (male) individuals. If it were, we could eliminate them and be done with it. Men are more like the employees in the business - involved and complicit for the ways in which they benefit, but ultimately not the cause of the institution itself. And certainly not powerful enough that I could force them to end sexism by witholding sex from the handful of men who cross my path.

&lt;blockquote&gt;My life is cockless, but amazingly enough, I have not died.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And even when my life was cockless, I didn&#039;t escape sexism. Avoiding sex with individual men hardly protects me from the institution of misogyny.

That&#039;s the other part that bothers me about your argument: you are reducing women&#039;s power to how they sexually influence men. If we &quot;enable&quot; men by associating with them, that means the only way we could disable them would be by &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; associating - which overlooks the vast body of feminist activism that goes beyond simple separatism.

Women&#039;s power is not merely reactive; we can also carve out spaces for ourselves in which we take positive, powerful actions.

You are correct in noting that your comment involves blaming the underdog - you blame women for being sexually involved with men, without acknowledging if or how they are taking feminist action that doesn&#039;t involve their personal sexual choices. Victim blaming of this sort is not allowed here, so consider this a warning. You are welcome to comment, but you must abide by the &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.shrub.com/discussion-rules/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;discussion rules&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>evil incarnate</b>:<br />
<blockquote>You wouldnâ€™t knowingly support a business which enabled the continuance of something you donâ€™t like, so why do women continue to enable teh cock by associating with it?</p></blockquote>
<p>Your analogy doesn&#8217;t hold up for me. Even if I didn&#8217;t support a business, I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily dismiss the individuals who worked in it. I would speak out about their complicity, to be sure, but I wouldn&#8217;t hold them responsible for the institution itself.</p>
<p>Similarly, sexism isn&#8217;t the &#8220;fault&#8221; of any particular (male) individuals. If it were, we could eliminate them and be done with it. Men are more like the employees in the business &#8211; involved and complicit for the ways in which they benefit, but ultimately not the cause of the institution itself. And certainly not powerful enough that I could force them to end sexism by witholding sex from the handful of men who cross my path.</p>
<blockquote><p>My life is cockless, but amazingly enough, I have not died.</p></blockquote>
<p>And even when my life was cockless, I didn&#8217;t escape sexism. Avoiding sex with individual men hardly protects me from the institution of misogyny.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the other part that bothers me about your argument: you are reducing women&#8217;s power to how they sexually influence men. If we &#8220;enable&#8221; men by associating with them, that means the only way we could disable them would be by <i>not</i> associating &#8211; which overlooks the vast body of feminist activism that goes beyond simple separatism.</p>
<p>Women&#8217;s power is not merely reactive; we can also carve out spaces for ourselves in which we take positive, powerful actions.</p>
<p>You are correct in noting that your comment involves blaming the underdog &#8211; you blame women for being sexually involved with men, without acknowledging if or how they are taking feminist action that doesn&#8217;t involve their personal sexual choices. Victim blaming of this sort is not allowed here, so consider this a warning. You are welcome to comment, but you must abide by the <a href="http://blog.shrub.com/discussion-rules/" rel="nofollow">discussion rules</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Sigel Phoenix</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578/comment-page-1#comment-60841</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigel Phoenix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578#comment-60841</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Roy&lt;/b&gt;: You raise a good point - after all, the official discourse must be performed by individual people, and so this pattern affects that discourse too. The same sort of doubt and attempts at counter-explanations show up all over the legal system. (Which is then portrayed as fair and objective.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Roy</b>: You raise a good point &#8211; after all, the official discourse must be performed by individual people, and so this pattern affects that discourse too. The same sort of doubt and attempts at counter-explanations show up all over the legal system. (Which is then portrayed as fair and objective.)</p>
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		<title>By: Roy</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578/comment-page-1#comment-60689</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578#comment-60689</guid>
		<description>A similar topic came up on another site not that long ago, and I found the discussion really disturbing. It took me a little while to figure out what was bothering me, but then I had sort of an &quot;aha!&quot; moment. What you&#039;re describing doesn&#039;t just happen in regular discourse- it happens in the official discourse of sexual crimes. 

If someone robbed me, and I filed a police report, and they did an investigation and took it to trial, the assumption in the court is that I&#039;ve actually been the victim of a crime, but that I may have accused the wrong person by mistake. The assumption is not, generally, that I&#039;m a liar or making the whole thing up. 
When a woman is raped and goes to the police, there&#039;s a major assumption that it&#039;s possible she&#039;s lying or mistaken. This happens all the way through the process, and through the trial. In any other crime, if it makes it to trial, we assume the victim &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; a victim, but with sexual assaults, for some reason, women are treated like they&#039;re not &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; victims. It&#039;s not usually &quot;maybe this is just the wrong guy&quot; it&#039;s &quot;maybe you weren&#039;t &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; raped... maybe you misunderstood what happened? Maybe you didn&#039;t actually say no?&quot;

I don&#039;t know... that&#039;s the impression I get from people, at least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A similar topic came up on another site not that long ago, and I found the discussion really disturbing. It took me a little while to figure out what was bothering me, but then I had sort of an &#8220;aha!&#8221; moment. What you&#8217;re describing doesn&#8217;t just happen in regular discourse- it happens in the official discourse of sexual crimes. </p>
<p>If someone robbed me, and I filed a police report, and they did an investigation and took it to trial, the assumption in the court is that I&#8217;ve actually been the victim of a crime, but that I may have accused the wrong person by mistake. The assumption is not, generally, that I&#8217;m a liar or making the whole thing up.<br />
When a woman is raped and goes to the police, there&#8217;s a major assumption that it&#8217;s possible she&#8217;s lying or mistaken. This happens all the way through the process, and through the trial. In any other crime, if it makes it to trial, we assume the victim <i>is</i> a victim, but with sexual assaults, for some reason, women are treated like they&#8217;re not <i>really</i> victims. It&#8217;s not usually &#8220;maybe this is just the wrong guy&#8221; it&#8217;s &#8220;maybe you weren&#8217;t <i>really</i> raped&#8230; maybe you misunderstood what happened? Maybe you didn&#8217;t actually say no?&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know&#8230; that&#8217;s the impression I get from people, at least.</p>
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		<title>By: Vanity and Oddity &#171; The Geek Side</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578/comment-page-1#comment-60129</link>
		<dc:creator>Vanity and Oddity &#171; The Geek Side</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578#comment-60129</guid>
		<description>[...] UPDATE: A little more vanity. I just found out that someone followed my link to a post at Shrub dot com [see?]&#8230; and I feel, well, like a seven-year-old does when she&#8217;s just been told how grown-up she&#8217;s getting. *does a little dance* This is right up there with the first time I found out I was linked somewhere. *massive grin* [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] UPDATE: A little more vanity. I just found out that someone followed my link to a post at Shrub dot com [see?]&#8230; and I feel, well, like a seven-year-old does when she&#8217;s just been told how grown-up she&#8217;s getting. *does a little dance* This is right up there with the first time I found out I was linked somewhere. *massive grin* [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jo</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578/comment-page-1#comment-60122</link>
		<dc:creator>Jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:23:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578#comment-60122</guid>
		<description>Aww!  I got followed! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aww!  I got followed!</p>
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		<title>By: evil incarnate</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578/comment-page-1#comment-57401</link>
		<dc:creator>evil incarnate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578#comment-57401</guid>
		<description>I am a great believer in turning the tables.  They dismiss our concerns, so I dismiss theirs.  If that makes me evil, what are they?  

It&#039;s hard to say the following without sounding as if I&#039;m blaming the underdog, so perhaps in some ways I am.  But I am reminded that we always have a choice in how we choose to respond to most situations (immediate threats to physical safety notwithstanding).  And in that response lies some amount of power, it&#039;s just that most women choose not to use the little power we do have - even if that power is merely the withholding of response.  

Most women will readily acknowledge that we live in a sexist society.  And yet... they will still date teh cock, fuck teh cock, live with teh cock, and marry teh cock.  WHY?  My life is cockless, but amazingly enough, I have not died.

You wouldn&#039;t knowingly support a business which enabled the continuance of something you don&#039;t like, so why do women continue to enable teh cock by associating with it?  Make up any excuse you like, it&#039;s still an excuse.

If you need love, get a dog.  If you need sex, get a vibrator.  If you need shelter, get a roommate.  If you need intellectual stimulation, take a class.  If you need emotional support, get a friend.  We don&#039;t live in a country where women are forced to marry at gunpoint, so any associating you do is a CHOICE.  A choice which enables him to go on believing that everything is just fine and he doesn&#039;t need to change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a great believer in turning the tables.  They dismiss our concerns, so I dismiss theirs.  If that makes me evil, what are they?  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard to say the following without sounding as if I&#8217;m blaming the underdog, so perhaps in some ways I am.  But I am reminded that we always have a choice in how we choose to respond to most situations (immediate threats to physical safety notwithstanding).  And in that response lies some amount of power, it&#8217;s just that most women choose not to use the little power we do have &#8211; even if that power is merely the withholding of response.  </p>
<p>Most women will readily acknowledge that we live in a sexist society.  And yet&#8230; they will still date teh cock, fuck teh cock, live with teh cock, and marry teh cock.  WHY?  My life is cockless, but amazingly enough, I have not died.</p>
<p>You wouldn&#8217;t knowingly support a business which enabled the continuance of something you don&#8217;t like, so why do women continue to enable teh cock by associating with it?  Make up any excuse you like, it&#8217;s still an excuse.</p>
<p>If you need love, get a dog.  If you need sex, get a vibrator.  If you need shelter, get a roommate.  If you need intellectual stimulation, take a class.  If you need emotional support, get a friend.  We don&#8217;t live in a country where women are forced to marry at gunpoint, so any associating you do is a CHOICE.  A choice which enables him to go on believing that everything is just fine and he doesn&#8217;t need to change.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578/comment-page-1#comment-57248</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:06:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578#comment-57248</guid>
		<description>Here via Jo, and just wanted to say that I found this a very thoughtful post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here via Jo, and just wanted to say that I found this a very thoughtful post.</p>
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		<title>By: Jo</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578/comment-page-1#comment-57240</link>
		<dc:creator>Jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578#comment-57240</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Sara:&lt;/strong&gt; When I get that sort of response (on anything I&#039;m upset about), my first thought is &quot;Yes, x is far worse but that doesn&#039;t stop this from hurting, and until you can look me dead in the eye and say &#039;what happened to you happened to me too&#039; and &lt;em&gt;still&lt;/em&gt; keep that opinion, then I&#039;m not going to give much thought to what you have to say on this subject.&quot;

(Side note: sometimes a person&#039;s inability to hear how bad things are for you stem from them being subject to those worse things, in which case I shut up and take my complaints to an ear that will hear.  But that is completely and utterly beside the point.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Sara:</strong> When I get that sort of response (on anything I&#8217;m upset about), my first thought is &#8220;Yes, x is far worse but that doesn&#8217;t stop this from hurting, and until you can look me dead in the eye and say &#8216;what happened to you happened to me too&#8217; and <em>still</em> keep that opinion, then I&#8217;m not going to give much thought to what you have to say on this subject.&#8221;</p>
<p>(Side note: sometimes a person&#8217;s inability to hear how bad things are for you stem from them being subject to those worse things, in which case I shut up and take my complaints to an ear that will hear.  But that is completely and utterly beside the point.)</p>
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		<title>By: Sigel Phoenix</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578/comment-page-1#comment-57198</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigel Phoenix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 04:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2007-04-16_578#comment-57198</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Jo&lt;/b&gt;: Well, that&#039;s a huge compliment. It&#039;s great that you want to talk more about this topic on your own blog.

&lt;b&gt;tekanji&lt;/b&gt;: Thanks. :D

&lt;b&gt;Sara&lt;/b&gt;: I should clarify, that was not something other people told me. &lt;i&gt;I&lt;/i&gt; was saying this, so that I wouldn&#039;t give readers the impression that the response I received was that extreme. Thankfully, no one actually gave me the &#039;what do you have to complain about?&#039; dismissal - you&#039;re right, it &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; infuriating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Jo</b>: Well, that&#8217;s a huge compliment. It&#8217;s great that you want to talk more about this topic on your own blog.</p>
<p><b>tekanji</b>: Thanks. <img src='http://blog.shrub.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><b>Sara</b>: I should clarify, that was not something other people told me. <i>I</i> was saying this, so that I wouldn&#8217;t give readers the impression that the response I received was that extreme. Thankfully, no one actually gave me the &#8216;what do you have to complain about?&#8217; dismissal &#8211; you&#8217;re right, it <i>is</i> infuriating.</p>
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