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	<title>Comments on: Fighting Words</title>
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	<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354</link>
	<description>Because we care about stuff</description>
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		<title>By: tekanji</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354/comment-page-1#comment-170835</link>
		<dc:creator>tekanji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:57:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354#comment-170835</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Demexii:&lt;/b&gt; You listed all you need to know why most women seem to be more touchy when they&#039;re insulted, and yet you&#039;ve failed to connect the dots.

Let me pull the relevant parts from what you&#039;ve said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;But calling someone a girl is probably the ultimate insult.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;Calling a fellow geek a geek is fine because both are geeks and know that they really are. But if you called a “geek” a “stupid jock” they probably will take it worse because you are saying “You don’t belong in this group but that one that isn’t as good over there.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

When men make jokes about women, it&#039;s not the same as calling each other &quot;jackasses&quot;. And I&#039;m sure you would be surprised to know that women -- yes, even the humorless women&#039;s studies set -- engage in the same kind of play-insulting that you and your buddies do. We even know how to turn it around (it&#039;s known as &quot;reclaiming&quot;, and for an example see &quot;Heartless Bitches International&quot; on my blogroll).

But what we &lt;i&gt;don&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; like, nor feel a need to play along with, are insults that tell us, &quot;You don&#039;t belong in this group&quot;. When &quot;girl&quot; (or &quot;bitch/slut/pussy&quot;, etc) is one of the ultimate insults you can use within your group, then when you insult a woman, &lt;i&gt;especially&lt;/i&gt; by using a gendered insult, you&#039;re degrading her in a way that you wouldn&#039;t, and indeed couldn&#039;t, degrade your buddies. You&#039;re telling her that she isn&#039;t fit to be in your group.

And if you add to that all the other baggage that comes with those words -- they are staples in the verbal aspect of domestic violence, to name one example -- it makes them even more potent.

So, in summation, don&#039;t try to use your own experiences to judge that of another group because there is no valid way to do a one-to-one comparison.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Demexii:</b> You listed all you need to know why most women seem to be more touchy when they&#8217;re insulted, and yet you&#8217;ve failed to connect the dots.</p>
<p>Let me pull the relevant parts from what you&#8217;ve said:</p>
<blockquote><p>But calling someone a girl is probably the ultimate insult.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>Calling a fellow geek a geek is fine because both are geeks and know that they really are. But if you called a “geek” a “stupid jock” they probably will take it worse because you are saying “You don’t belong in this group but that one that isn’t as good over there.”</p></blockquote>
<p>When men make jokes about women, it&#8217;s not the same as calling each other &#8220;jackasses&#8221;. And I&#8217;m sure you would be surprised to know that women &#8212; yes, even the humorless women&#8217;s studies set &#8212; engage in the same kind of play-insulting that you and your buddies do. We even know how to turn it around (it&#8217;s known as &#8220;reclaiming&#8221;, and for an example see &#8220;Heartless Bitches International&#8221; on my blogroll).</p>
<p>But what we <i>don&#8217;t</i> like, nor feel a need to play along with, are insults that tell us, &#8220;You don&#8217;t belong in this group&#8221;. When &#8220;girl&#8221; (or &#8220;bitch/slut/pussy&#8221;, etc) is one of the ultimate insults you can use within your group, then when you insult a woman, <i>especially</i> by using a gendered insult, you&#8217;re degrading her in a way that you wouldn&#8217;t, and indeed couldn&#8217;t, degrade your buddies. You&#8217;re telling her that she isn&#8217;t fit to be in your group.</p>
<p>And if you add to that all the other baggage that comes with those words &#8212; they are staples in the verbal aspect of domestic violence, to name one example &#8212; it makes them even more potent.</p>
<p>So, in summation, don&#8217;t try to use your own experiences to judge that of another group because there is no valid way to do a one-to-one comparison.</p>
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		<title>By: Demexii</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354/comment-page-1#comment-170834</link>
		<dc:creator>Demexii</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 05:10:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354#comment-170834</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure how to express it but I believe one of the reasons why insults to men don&#039;t work so well is because men don&#039;t really care as much. I believe that women take an insult closer to the heart than a man does. My friends insult each other so much that it pretty much is a &quot;yeah, yeah&quot; kind of thing. Someone walks in and says &quot;Hey jackasses&quot; and no one really even looks. One guy failed physics and we make fun of him whenever we can because of it &quot;Hey, maybe if you passed physics you would have known you couldn&#039;t make that jump!&quot; We are pretty mean to each other to begin with. But calling someone a girl is probably the ultimate insult. Relate this to being a &quot;geek&quot; or another social group. Calling a fellow geek a geek is fine because both are geeks and know that they really are. But if you called a &quot;geek&quot; a &quot;stupid jock&quot; they probably will take it worse because you are saying &quot;You don&#039;t belong in this group but that one that isn&#039;t as good over there.&quot;

If someone insults a male they usually turn it into pride &quot;Yes, I am an jackass/dick/bastard.&quot; But females aren&#039;t able to as readily. Instead of saying &quot;Yes, I am a bitch/slut/pussy.&quot; they instead try to separate themselves from that and say &quot;No, I&#039;m like you! See!&quot; Or maybe I am wrong. I&#039;ve only been on this Earth for 20 years and have more to learn. Peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure how to express it but I believe one of the reasons why insults to men don&#8217;t work so well is because men don&#8217;t really care as much. I believe that women take an insult closer to the heart than a man does. My friends insult each other so much that it pretty much is a &#8220;yeah, yeah&#8221; kind of thing. Someone walks in and says &#8220;Hey jackasses&#8221; and no one really even looks. One guy failed physics and we make fun of him whenever we can because of it &#8220;Hey, maybe if you passed physics you would have known you couldn&#8217;t make that jump!&#8221; We are pretty mean to each other to begin with. But calling someone a girl is probably the ultimate insult. Relate this to being a &#8220;geek&#8221; or another social group. Calling a fellow geek a geek is fine because both are geeks and know that they really are. But if you called a &#8220;geek&#8221; a &#8220;stupid jock&#8221; they probably will take it worse because you are saying &#8220;You don&#8217;t belong in this group but that one that isn&#8217;t as good over there.&#8221;</p>
<p>If someone insults a male they usually turn it into pride &#8220;Yes, I am an jackass/dick/bastard.&#8221; But females aren&#8217;t able to as readily. Instead of saying &#8220;Yes, I am a bitch/slut/pussy.&#8221; they instead try to separate themselves from that and say &#8220;No, I&#8217;m like you! See!&#8221; Or maybe I am wrong. I&#8217;ve only been on this Earth for 20 years and have more to learn. Peace.</p>
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		<title>By: Official Shrub.com Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Harassment, silencing, and gaming communities</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354/comment-page-1#comment-168887</link>
		<dc:creator>Official Shrub.com Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Harassment, silencing, and gaming communities</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 08:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354#comment-168887</guid>
		<description>[...] They may be &#8220;just words&#8221;, but the words used and the frequency with which they show up gives them power, and one of those powers is in discouraging women from posting their comments. This, of course, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] They may be &#8220;just words&#8221;, but the words used and the frequency with which they show up gives them power, and one of those powers is in discouraging women from posting their comments. This, of course, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sigel Phoenix</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354/comment-page-1#comment-66286</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigel Phoenix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 18:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354#comment-66286</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Anthony&lt;/b&gt;: It&#039;s true that women are expected to be girly, and that (heterosexual) men are not. But that doesn&#039;t prevent &lt;i&gt;both&lt;/i&gt; women and &quot;girly&quot; men from being devalued due to female attributes.

I suggest rereading these paragraphs from my post:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Regardless of who says the words, the message that everyone gets is that itâ€™s bad to be called them - and because these words are associated with female characteristics, itâ€™s bad to be &lt;i&gt;like a woman&lt;/i&gt;. These insults are simply shorthand versions of the common admonishments, â€œDonâ€™t be such a girlâ€ or, â€œTake it like a man.â€ Both versions maintain the old hierarchy of manly = good, girly = bad, which go beyond the game or whatever social situation in which theyâ€™re used.

The damage isnâ€™t equal between men and women. Certainly these insults can hurt men, especially when theyâ€™re used as a method of social ostracization - something which geeks are all too familiar with. The message to men is: &lt;i&gt;Youâ€™re acting like a woman, and that makes you bad&lt;/i&gt;. To women, however, the message is: &lt;i&gt;It doesnâ€™t matter how you act, &lt;b&gt;what you are is bad&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt;. For women, these words tap into deeper and longer-standing rejection, degradation, and humiliation - into a sexism that spans social status, that spans &lt;i&gt;history&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I assure you, the insults of &quot;bitch&quot; and &quot;pussy&quot; don&#039;t become less insulting when applied to women just because they&#039;re &quot;supposed&quot; to be that way.

The rest of your comment violates our &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.shrub.com/discussion-rules/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;discussion rules&lt;/a&gt;. In particular, refer to #8 and #11. Dismissing the oppression women face and instructing me to give equal time to men who face &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; of the same level of difficulty is not allowed. Consider this a warning. I would also urge you to refer to &lt;a href=&quot;http://finallyfeminism101.blogspot.com/2007/03/faq-roundup-introductory-material.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Finally, a Feminism 101 blog&lt;/a&gt; for more information.

If you think that I&#039;m being short in my response to you - well, I am. The reason is that I (and tekanji, and other feminist bloggers) have to deal over and over again with the charge that men are more oppressed and deserve more attention. It&#039;s a tired argument that we have to spend our energy refuting again and again. Most of these comments come from men who do not spend their energy blogging about men&#039;s issues - they only come to feminist spaces and demand that &lt;i&gt;feminists&lt;/i&gt; take up men&#039;s causes. Consider that, along with the links I&#039;ve given you, next time you start to make the same complaint in a feminist blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Anthony</b>: It&#8217;s true that women are expected to be girly, and that (heterosexual) men are not. But that doesn&#8217;t prevent <i>both</i> women and &#8220;girly&#8221; men from being devalued due to female attributes.</p>
<p>I suggest rereading these paragraphs from my post:</p>
<blockquote><p>Regardless of who says the words, the message that everyone gets is that itâ€™s bad to be called them &#8211; and because these words are associated with female characteristics, itâ€™s bad to be <i>like a woman</i>. These insults are simply shorthand versions of the common admonishments, â€œDonâ€™t be such a girlâ€ or, â€œTake it like a man.â€ Both versions maintain the old hierarchy of manly = good, girly = bad, which go beyond the game or whatever social situation in which theyâ€™re used.</p>
<p>The damage isnâ€™t equal between men and women. Certainly these insults can hurt men, especially when theyâ€™re used as a method of social ostracization &#8211; something which geeks are all too familiar with. The message to men is: <i>Youâ€™re acting like a woman, and that makes you bad</i>. To women, however, the message is: <i>It doesnâ€™t matter how you act, <b>what you are is bad</b></i>. For women, these words tap into deeper and longer-standing rejection, degradation, and humiliation &#8211; into a sexism that spans social status, that spans <i>history</i>.</p></blockquote>
<p>I assure you, the insults of &#8220;bitch&#8221; and &#8220;pussy&#8221; don&#8217;t become less insulting when applied to women just because they&#8217;re &#8220;supposed&#8221; to be that way.</p>
<p>The rest of your comment violates our <a href="http://blog.shrub.com/discussion-rules/" rel="nofollow">discussion rules</a>. In particular, refer to #8 and #11. Dismissing the oppression women face and instructing me to give equal time to men who face <i>some</i> of the same level of difficulty is not allowed. Consider this a warning. I would also urge you to refer to <a href="http://finallyfeminism101.blogspot.com/2007/03/faq-roundup-introductory-material.html" rel="nofollow">Finally, a Feminism 101 blog</a> for more information.</p>
<p>If you think that I&#8217;m being short in my response to you &#8211; well, I am. The reason is that I (and tekanji, and other feminist bloggers) have to deal over and over again with the charge that men are more oppressed and deserve more attention. It&#8217;s a tired argument that we have to spend our energy refuting again and again. Most of these comments come from men who do not spend their energy blogging about men&#8217;s issues &#8211; they only come to feminist spaces and demand that <i>feminists</i> take up men&#8217;s causes. Consider that, along with the links I&#8217;ve given you, next time you start to make the same complaint in a feminist blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Kees</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354/comment-page-1#comment-65900</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Kees</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 06:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354#comment-65900</guid>
		<description>Is it not true that your real argument should be that it is not okay for MEN to be girly?

It&#039;s quite all right for girls to be girly.  Girls are SUPPOSED to be girly.  If they&#039;re not girly, then what?  They get called tom-boy, which isn&#039;t even an insult in today&#039;s society.

Guys on the other hand, cannot act girly.  Does it mean that acting girly is bad?  No.  It means that men acting girly is a bad thing.

So perhaps instead of changing our language, you should work on changing our society, to be more accepting of men who are homosexual or &#039;metrosexual.&#039;


Also, there are words that you can use against a man that are insulting and in no way masculating.  Prick for example, is used for short penises.  No man wants to be equated to that.  So is this sexist?  If it is, then you should probably change your argument quite a lot (from dealing with female specific insults to ALL gender specific insutls).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it not true that your real argument should be that it is not okay for MEN to be girly?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s quite all right for girls to be girly.  Girls are SUPPOSED to be girly.  If they&#8217;re not girly, then what?  They get called tom-boy, which isn&#8217;t even an insult in today&#8217;s society.</p>
<p>Guys on the other hand, cannot act girly.  Does it mean that acting girly is bad?  No.  It means that men acting girly is a bad thing.</p>
<p>So perhaps instead of changing our language, you should work on changing our society, to be more accepting of men who are homosexual or &#8216;metrosexual.&#8217;</p>
<p>Also, there are words that you can use against a man that are insulting and in no way masculating.  Prick for example, is used for short penises.  No man wants to be equated to that.  So is this sexist?  If it is, then you should probably change your argument quite a lot (from dealing with female specific insults to ALL gender specific insutls).</p>
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		<title>By: Sigel Phoenix</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354/comment-page-1#comment-2133</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigel Phoenix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 05:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354#comment-2133</guid>
		<description>Yeah, that&#039;ll definitely get your point across. I like your style.

Like you, I often am intimidated into silence. And sometimes I don&#039;t have the time or energy to take someone to task for their language; or I just don&#039;t feel like putting up with the BS I know I&#039;m going to get in response. But like you said, there are times when you know a person isn&#039;t just being thoughtless, but actually is putting effort into using language like &quot;bitch,&quot; and those are the times when it&#039;s most important to call them out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, that&#8217;ll definitely get your point across. I like your style.</p>
<p>Like you, I often am intimidated into silence. And sometimes I don&#8217;t have the time or energy to take someone to task for their language; or I just don&#8217;t feel like putting up with the BS I know I&#8217;m going to get in response. But like you said, there are times when you know a person isn&#8217;t just being thoughtless, but actually is putting effort into using language like &#8220;bitch,&#8221; and those are the times when it&#8217;s most important to call them out.</p>
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		<title>By: Godless Heathen</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354/comment-page-1#comment-2126</link>
		<dc:creator>Godless Heathen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 05:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354#comment-2126</guid>
		<description>Oh boy, even I&#039;ve caught myself saying &quot;bitch&quot; about something that was knocking me down in hitpoints, and I&#039;m the one whose likely to get most upset about it.  I take pride in the reclaimatory aspects of the word and normally I feel you gotta &lt;i&gt;earn&lt;/i&gt; it. 

When it&#039;s something like over teamspeak or face to face gaming, I tend to be intimidated into silence about it, but if someone took the time to type out the word while in a game, I usually call them out.  If you have time to type it out, you had to conciously choose the word and you&#039;re not paying attention to what you&#039;re doing.  In the thick of things, all I want to see are acronyms and shorthand telling me what I&#039;m supposed to do.  Having it slip out of your mouth once or twice in suprise is forgiveable, making a habit of it will get you a few minutes with the DM or guildleader about how everyone at the table/on teamspeak should feel comfortable and welcome.  Or I don&#039;t play with you.  There&#039;s nothing quite like having the priest suddenly decide to bugger off in the middle of combat to make a point clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh boy, even I&#8217;ve caught myself saying &#8220;bitch&#8221; about something that was knocking me down in hitpoints, and I&#8217;m the one whose likely to get most upset about it.  I take pride in the reclaimatory aspects of the word and normally I feel you gotta <i>earn</i> it. </p>
<p>When it&#8217;s something like over teamspeak or face to face gaming, I tend to be intimidated into silence about it, but if someone took the time to type out the word while in a game, I usually call them out.  If you have time to type it out, you had to conciously choose the word and you&#8217;re not paying attention to what you&#8217;re doing.  In the thick of things, all I want to see are acronyms and shorthand telling me what I&#8217;m supposed to do.  Having it slip out of your mouth once or twice in suprise is forgiveable, making a habit of it will get you a few minutes with the DM or guildleader about how everyone at the table/on teamspeak should feel comfortable and welcome.  Or I don&#8217;t play with you.  There&#8217;s nothing quite like having the priest suddenly decide to bugger off in the middle of combat to make a point clear.</p>
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		<title>By: Dora</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354/comment-page-1#comment-1788</link>
		<dc:creator>Dora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354#comment-1788</guid>
		<description>Thanks!

That&#039;s a good strategy - though, unfortunately, when I&#039;m tabletopping I can&#039;t complain about the construction of the adventure lest I invoke the wrath of my GM ...

(The quote is great too.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a good strategy &#8211; though, unfortunately, when I&#8217;m tabletopping I can&#8217;t complain about the construction of the adventure lest I invoke the wrath of my GM &#8230;</p>
<p>(The quote is great too.)</p>
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		<title>By: jfpbookworm</title>
		<link>http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354/comment-page-1#comment-1783</link>
		<dc:creator>jfpbookworm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shrub.com/archives/dora/2006-08-08_354#comment-1783</guid>
		<description>Welcome aboard!

&lt;blockquote&gt;If youâ€™re going to get all bent out of shape while playing the game, so much so that you need to curse the t.v., try not to gay-bash it, all right?

- Holden McNeil, &lt;i&gt;Chasing Amy&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s the nice thing about turn-based RPGs and adventure games.  I can deliver long diatribes to the screen about how the game is badly designed (any difficulties I experience with a game are due to bad design, obviously) and not have to conserve syllables, because the game will wait for me to finish insulting it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome aboard!</p>
<blockquote><p>If youâ€™re going to get all bent out of shape while playing the game, so much so that you need to curse the t.v., try not to gay-bash it, all right?</p>
<p>- Holden McNeil, <i>Chasing Amy</i></p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s the nice thing about turn-based RPGs and adventure games.  I can deliver long diatribes to the screen about how the game is badly designed (any difficulties I experience with a game are due to bad design, obviously) and not have to conserve syllables, because the game will wait for me to finish insulting it.</p>
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